Tuesday, August 09, 2016

Stop the Presses. I've Gotten it all Wrong! Or, Blogger is Schooled by a Narcissist.

The only reason this is being posted on the front page of the blog is because my response is too lengthy for the comment section because I reply inline with the original comment. 

The comment I am responding to was posted to this blog:  The Savior Complex.  Apparently, my blog is making life hard for the narcissists.  My response is my apology for this fact.  Or maybe not. 

Here we go.  Naturally, I could have gone into much more detail in my response, but I ain't got time for dat. 

Hello. As someone with NPD, I find this inherently harmful, and here is why.

Hello.  As someone with much experience at the receiving end of NPD I find your comments inherently self-serving and obtuse.

People with NPD are not inherently abusive. We have the tendencies to be so, yes, but that does not mean that we are by default. Anyone, personality disorder or not, Cluster A, B, or C, can be abusive.

That all depends on your definition of abuse.  And judging by your entire missive here, I’d say you are quick to minimize others pain and quicker to point out your own.  So you’re hardly a good judge on this point.  Clusterfuck A, B or C...it matters not.  Arbitrary psychobabble labels don't define people.  Their behavior toward others does. 

Narcissists do need attention, yes. It makes us feel good about ourself, and if we don't get it, we spiral into depression. That is called narcissistic injury, the same that happens without insults.

Everyone needs attention.  The problem with malignant narcissists is that they need ALL the attention.  This means they want the attention that should rightly go to someone else which is equivalent to theft.  Stealing attention hurts others.  Sometimes it is extremely destructive to others.

It is not exactly difficult to praise a narcissist on their appearance, work, art, etc.

My point wasn’t that it was difficult.  My point is that it is impossible to ever give enough.  With narcissists it is all going one way…towards themselves.  Otherwise they think they’re being abused.

If a narcissist is abusive, it is not the NPD causing it. It's the fact they are an abuser. People with NPD don't typically ask for help, no, but over years of dealing with it, we learn to cope in ways that don't push others away or hurt them. Actually, most of us don't want others to find out we have NPD, so we either cope with it extremely well or hide it in very unhealthy ways. Do you know why? Because of articles like this. BLOGS like this. Because we can't even try finding answers as to how we can cope without finding things about how we are burdens and how OTHERS can cope with us and eventually get away from us.

I would love to meet such a nice narcissist as you.  To claim that blogs like mine are the problem for people like you, well, so be it.  It is about time for the narcissists to have to deal with our problems with them. Oh, and if you don't act like a selfish fuckwit all the time then it is unlikely that people will find out you're a narcissist.  I'm sorry you have to hide your evil tendencies in order to not be discovered to have NPD, it must be a real burden for you.

Do you know how you keep yourself from getting stuck in an abusive relationship with a narcissist? Talk. To. Us. Don't just say we're too demanding and you can't keep up, ask us about compromises. What kind of narcissistic supply do we like best? Would a few compliments on our outfit get us through the day? It's about communication, the same as any relationship.

Oh. My. God.  You don’t have a clue.

Do you know how people end up with personality disorders like NPD? Usually abuse. And those with personality disorders are statistically more likely to repeatedly end up in abusive situations. The fact you'd have your readers believe that we're all the abusive ones is disgusting.

I don’t claim all narcissists are abusers, but a case for that could be made.  If someone is on my blog it is because they have suffered long under the tyranny of a narcissist who is far less wonderful than you are.  I didn’t shape their beliefs on this … their abusive narcissist did.  And bringing out the old saw about abuse causing NPD is lame and unscientific.  Just t'aint true.  I won't bore you with the facts.

We are not bad people because we have lowered empathy. Just because we can't understand how one is feeling does not mean we can't feel concern and express compassion, it just means we may not be able to help as eloquently as someone with higher empathy levels.

The person with lowered empathy is very unlikely to know how much they hurt others.  Oh, and saying the right words is not all that empathy may require. Pretty shallow definition of empathy if you think it is just being eloquent or feeling something.

Don't say you didn't mean people who are simply egotistical. The use of the word narcissist says this was aimed at US, and honestly, your willingness to throw us under the bus speaks volumes about how you would treat someone who acted like us. Either reconsider your wording, or work on your internalized hatred of people with personality disorders. You are hurting us.

Okay, I won’t say that I was only talking about egotistical people.  I wasn’t.  In fact, I am quite able to draw a line of distinction between people who are egotistical and those who are narcissists.  They are not necessarily one and the same; in fact, they very often are not the same thing.  But I cover that in other areas of my blog.  In fact, when people assume that egotists are narcissists I instantly know they don’t know a narcissist from a hole in the ground.  I was intentionally aiming at narcissists.  My recommendations on how to deal with narcissists are humane for everyone.  No violence like throwing under buses is ever recommended.  I have no internalized hatred for people with personality disorders.  I hate the under handed, deceitful and nasty practices some people employ to the detriment of others.  If telling people to walk away from an abusive narcissist is hurting people with PD’s, well, so be it.  Sometimes nasty people won’t learn until they find themselves alone because they are nasty.  I know more than one PD person who has bought a clue because they ended up with nothing because of their bad behavior.  Some people never learn except the hard way.

People are not victims of narcissism. They are victims of abuse. The only victims of NPD are the sufferers.

People are victims of abusive narcissists. The sufferers are their victims.  That word “abusive” in my first sentence of this paragraph is an adjective that describes the kind of narcissists I write about.  Which means I’m not writing about every single narcissist out there.  Necessarily.   If you don’t abuse others, then I wasn’t writing about you.  But I suppose your narcissism is showing since you think it is all about you.  On the other hand, maybe it IS all about you.

This is all the attention from me that you’re going to get.  Any further comments of yours will be deleted.  You have amply notified all readers of this blog that you think I’m all wrong.  I have kindly posted your comment on my front page so people can come to their own conclusions.  I’m sure you’ve persuaded everyone that I’m all wrong and you’re a victim of bloggers like me.  I’m guessing the attention I’ve given you isn’t the right kind or enough.  Save your protests cuz I don’t give a fuck.  Have a nice day.


Anonymous said...

Anna it's good to hear from you. Too bad it's because you are defending yourself from a narc. When I first heard of NPD I kept hearing of the violence associated with them.As bad as my mother was. She limited her abuse to things that did not leave marks. So I kept reading and kept thinking this is my mother, this is my mother! But she isn't violent. I finally pieced it together that the writers were not referring to the narcissist. But to the people that snap after decades of abuse and smack the narc and go to jail. Then it all made sense and it all fell into place. I moved in with my mother after she had some health issues and fifty years after she dumped me off at my grandmothers to be raised by her own mother. When I mover in, I was as dutiful a southern boy son as one would hope to ever find and after 7 months I had to leave for fear of me walking over and knocking the shit out of her. I was telling her to shut the f*** up etc etc things I never thought I would do. Never in a million years

Unknown said...

Narcs are the lowest form of human existance. They really are a one-word definition for abusing and humiliating another life form on this planet. One must protect themselves from these low-life parasites by building up your own self esteem. That is the best narc repellent you can ever get. They prey only on the weak and people with good intentions.

jed said...

Thank you for posting this. You did an amazing job. And so did the letter writer, in a roundabout way. By managing to capture all in one screed the various manipulative, devious, deceitful, and abusive tactics used by people who, according to the writer, deserve sympathy and attention.

sarah said...

OMG what an excellent reminder of how the N cannot even fathom how they hurt everyone around them.

Madeline said...

"I'm sorry you have to hide your evil tendencies in order to not be discovered to have NPD, it must be a real burden for you."

I love you so much, thanks again for this blog! :D

Unknown said...

Wow. Just wow. You did an amazing job of responding to this full on Narcissist. What is most fascinating is the ability of this and other NPD"S to completely but subtly twist words and refocus direction back onto themselves and paint themselves as victims, when in fact they are emotional vampires, sucking us dry emotionally, and usually physically and financially. There was so much gas lighting going on in this exchange that it is an excellent example for all of us victims and survivors of these abusive beings of what to diligently be aware of in terms of the arsenal of tools NPD's use to control, confuse and abuse. Thank you for posting this and for your amazing blog.

Tundra Woman said...

OK, Homey Boo Boo. You ought to know. Yawn.
What a shit stain on the thong of humanity. Next time, use dental floss.

triadcatz said...

Thanks for putting Dio in his/her place. Thanks for being a champion for victims of narcissism.

Anonymous said...

Just when you thought you were out they pulled you back in.

Unknown said...

Yes....Hats off to Anna for having the great courage to put this up. Had to re-read this again. It is frightening to realize that NARCs gather up information from everywhere, and use it to rationalize their self-absorbed world of diabolical manipulation. Boggles the minds of sane people that have empathy for others. To see a NARC trying to get sympathy...feeling ZERO remorse for a parasitic existance they are totally aware of.....again....NARCs are limitless to the abusive depths a soul-less human being can sink too.

Unknown said...

Another great post, Anna! I love how you break down the comment piece by piece and cast down every part of it!

There is nothing more frustrating then having a conversation with a narcissist or a manipulative person and not being able to hold them accountable for what they said. Narcissists love to confuse us by throwing as many manipulation tactics as they can at us. When they're stupid enough to put it in writing, they give you the opportunity to discern every tactic they're using and you have solid proof of who they really are.

You truly are a gifted writer, Anna. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and knowledge to help those who've been the victims of this kind of abuse.

Joan S said...

I'm going to have to print this up and keep it posted on the fridge. Its so good. I will never feel sorry for a narcissist. And yeah, boo hoo. NOT!!!

Anna Valerious said...

I think this admitted narcissist's prolific use of psychology's terms and labels is an excellent example of why psychology and its counselors are unable to fix narcissists. This has actually been documented and observed by Dr.s' Samenow and Hare. Personality disordered persons (to use psych terms) only learn how to better manipulate others because psychology hands them the tools and insights into how normal people think and respond and behave. This comment is a decent illustration of how that works.

Anonymous said...

If they are really innocents making their way through life in a desultory fashion, why do they feel the need to lie about their misdeeds? My mothers mouth moving was the best indicator of her telling a whopper.

mulderfan said...

Anna, way back in the day when I was dumb enough to see a shrink, in order to cope with my raging narcissistic father, the guy suggested I role play my father having the session.
I told the poor guy to go f**k himself. The guy says, "No, pretend to be your father." so I told him to go f**k himself. No joke! After being told three times,he kicked me out for not co-operating!
Another shrink basically told me to suck it up, because none of us get the parents we want.

Moral of the story: Not only do narcs not understand narcs but neither do most so-called professionals. Sadly, only those of us that have managed to claw our way outta the rabbit hole ever truly understand...kinds...sorta...maybe...never!

Oddly, most narcs I've encountered are reasonably intelligent, until they try to justify the abuse they dish out. Then, like this one, they're just plain stupid. Hope it crawls back under its rock and leaves you in peace.

Unknown said...

I'm just in shock to find a narc that has actually been formally diagnosed and admits to having a problem. Or wait no...it is just everyone else's problem. If we all would just talk to them so we could give them the appropriate supply there wouldn't be a problem.

Yvonne C said...

I love how you ripped this narc a new one. You rock. Thank you so much for your blog. I'm sorry that you've had to deal with such rotten people in your life but lots of good has come from it by way of helping others. Your blog is one of the first I came upon when I first started researching narcissism and it hit home with me because you don't sugar coat the truth, what you see is what you get and that's so refreshing after spending years listening to the crazy making speech of narcissists. Never stop blogging!

Yvonne C said...

Welcome back!

Alicia Layvas said...

Textbook example of the narc's complete lack of self-awareness and the absolute absence of doubt that you will buy into his/her BS. That said, great post

AKA The Selfish Ingrate

Anna Valerious said...

As of today, this particular narcissist hasn't left any more comments. Thought ya'll might like to know. I was hoping for the pure satisfaction that would come from being able to hit the delete button on this stupid asshole, but alas. My joy was curtailed by their surprising good sense.

mulderfan said...

Like some of my blogger friends, I have a tracker on my blog that shows my Narcissistic Golden Child younger brother checking in on a regular basis. My followers hurt his widdle feewings when I initially posted his comments so he stopped commenting and I thought he had crawled back under his rock. Now he lurks in the background checking my blog and those I follow.
I've decided to be flattered! He simply can't live without me but I sure enjoy living without him! I call him my lurker.
Perhaps, your narc is lurking, too because narcs are too stupid and stubborn to admit they've met their match

Unknown said...

The best "Narc Repellent" available is using your knowledge to expose/embarrass/humiliate them in public.We all know they are sneaky manipulators and big time sucks deep down. Throw the truth in their face and zap them right out of the picture. Easy does it.

Unknown said...

Thanks for this! I love how the narc says "talk to us!" what a joke! You can talk as much as you want to these vampires but they will only hear things which reflect positively on them....ever try to tell a story about YOUR life to one? Now, THAT is an exercise in futility....

Unknown said...

lurking losers....definition of an online preditory Narc. The next step after that is serial stalker and then retaliation through violence. Low lifer bottom feeders that have nothing else to do but get in your face.....and waste your precious time....tell them to go F&%$ themselves!!!

tylerchill said...

This is a new one for me. Here is a narcissist who co-opted the NPD tag as a narcissistic tool. But the abusive language remains the same. It is "you" versus "us." "You" do not make the effort. "You" make the bad choices. In fact it is just "you," singular, blaming all of "us." Now who are you going to believe.

Anna Valerious said...

It was new for me too. As you succinctly point out everything else remained the same. All the blame-shifting and finger-pointing was present. It is never their fault. Even having NPD wasn't their fault. They are the victim. Everyone who won't go along with their view is an abuser.

This individual proves once again why psychology combined with a narcissist never results in anything good. Psychology as practiced by most only arms narcissists with more tools for manipulation. The proud display by this narcissist of the NPD label came from his/her belief that this label proves they can't help what they are; they were the original victim. The rest of us are just piling on.

I know people who never take responsibility for their bad behavior. They take all the credit when they do something right; but it is never their fault when they hurt, abuse, neglect, steal from others. They can't help it. They were not loved enough as a child. They didn't realize when they did it that you'd be hurt by it. They meant something else entirely other than how you took it. They had the purest motives; they're so sorry you can't see that fact. Etc, ad nauseum.

Notice to narcissists: If you want to take credit when you do something right then you damn well better take credit when you do wrong. Psych labels don't define you. You define yourself by how you treat others. No one forces you to be an asshole. It's a choice you make. Just because choosing to be a selfish creep is now habitual for you doesn't mean you have a disease. Habits are hard to break for everyone. You simply lack the motivation to stop your bad narcissist habits. Don't blame us for what you did to your own character.

Loved your comment, tylerchill. You summed it all up perfectly ... then your closing punchline drove it home. Brava.

Desio said...

Hi. I just wanted to say thank you. I've read your blog through a number of times over the past five years. Your insight helped me to leave a cult that I was raised in when I realized that the leaders were abusive narcissists. It also helped me leave my serialy-cheating husband. I have a really hard time trusting anyone anymore, but knowing that there really are ethical human beings out there somewhere, people like you and your husband, gives me hope. Thank god this blog exists.

BohemianBluebird said...

This was textbook awesome! The narc is just so victimized, wow. Thank you for posting this. It was humorous because it was such a crazy accurate depiction of how the narc manipulates. Its so easy to see clearly thru their manipulation when it's not personal. Talking to them is a joke, like this narc's sad life. I hope this gets some attention because it really is an excellent example of what dealing with a narc can be like. It is my opinion that though not all abusers are narcissistic, all people with NPD are abusive.

BrainWaive said...

Anna you are right on the money on your comments on the psychology terms used to arm narcs and further confuse victims. I was the victim of a narc who called herself my best friend for years, who had actually gone as far as getting a psychology degree. It became the most powerful tool in the evil arsenal because gas lighting is so much easier for her to pull off. When someone you believe to be knowledgeable in the field is constantly turning the tables to show how YOUR behaviour is inappropriate then you believe them because, well shit she studied psychology! She must know better than me! Unfortunately for her she made a mistake by constantly pouring psychology theory down my throat to get her way. My self image was so broken, I thought I was a terrible person and I came to believe only therapy can fix me, because it was her psychology knowledge revealing my 'traits'. I booked myself a session at first as a surprise to please her, with the aim of being able to go back to my narc and say 'guess what I did today. See I'm trying to be a better friend, I'm getting help so I can be better' as if I had to prove something. It turned out my chosen therapist spotted the PTSD signals almost immediately and by the second session had pinpointed the cause and began to educate me about narcissism. I have seperated myself and have been proudly narc free for 9 months. I am like a new person. I can't stress enough to people how powerful education is. Read books and blogs, spend time on Google or go to therapy. It makes you stronger and skilled at spotting the tactics and being impervious to them, because you see it for what it is; manipulation and emotional abuse.

#453 said...

Wow, Anna! Welcome back! We all missed you!

I saw this new entry upon re-reading (your blog is like a textbook with me!) "Narcissists don't age well"...My dad is now 89, mom 86.....bottom line: It is NOT going well.

Scenes were made by both of them at BOTH my children's weddings in the last year. (I could post all night,but, the bottom line is that, after 6 full years of "not contact" with either of them, I can attest that is was a BIG MISTAKE to invite them to the weddings!!!!

Stay well, Anna!!


Unknown said...


Yeah, it's the fundemental attribution error. People attribute good things they do to their own innate selves or hard work, but attribute bad things they do to cruel fate or external circumstances.

Anyway, I just wanted to say your blog has helped me deal with a relative that's a bully. I don't know if she's a narcissist, all I know is that she's hurt people and she can't continue to do that. She never directly responded to my firm but kind call out letter, and decided to paint herself as the victim, to the point where my grandma sided with her. The relative also called my home and cell phone, and would breathe into the phone to bother me. She even called the day of a surgery I had to have, which really stressed me out before I went into the operating room. Your blog reminds me that I don't deserve to be treated badly, and standing up for myself doesn't mean that I'm a bad person, it's my innate right as a human being. Just because she's family and we've had some good times together doesn't give her the right to treat me badly. I find comfort in my true family- my parents, who always stick up for me and love me, and my friends, who also support me.

gettingouttathedark said...

I am now grateful for the hateful comments from my mother last Sunday 10/09/2016 because it led me to find this site. It is hard to trust myself (I'm 56!) as I have been abused by her for so many many years. These people really do exist in the form of an 80 year old little old lady! She is such a fraud. I appreciate your presentation and will stay posted. It is hard to accept this is what I am dealing with-narcissism-but too much of what I have read here and elsewhere accurately describes my experiences...So I agree, they Suck. And thank you. I have decided to not have any 1 to 1 conversation with her because this is the only time she works her magic on me, privately. It is so hard to tell another what I endure because she only attacks me when we are alone. Also, I feel free to humiliate her now. She looks like a little old lady but she is demonic when she works me over...feels good to identify this in writing for the first time. Again, thank you.

Mary said...

I came back here and found this recent post. Had not read new ones for a long time--so glad to see it. I am in the middle/beginning really, of writing fiction. I have a character that is very controlling of another one. Sigh.. I don't seem to write w/o this person. I came here basically to refresh my memory on all the varying things. My main narc. has passed away and my own family has helped me deal with a secondary one. Just this morning I had to explain to this person how her nasty remark was nasty- I'm serious--which everyone here probably knows-- this person honestly did not understand they were insulting me. Jeez, I give up. Anyhow-- I wish dearly things were not this way. It would have been so nice if they weren't.

I was no contact for a long time, then stepped into limited contact--which grew too much. Well, the archives of your blog are available as a refreshment course. Thanks for not taking them down. Mary

mulderfan said...

The narc DOES understand, Mary and you did not HAVE to explain anything. Sadly, you CHOSE to explain and in doing so, unintentionally, fed the beast.

No judgement intended! It took me a lifetime to learn J.A.D.E: DON'T Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain.

This is why I recommend inflicting the greatest punishment. Let the beast starve by walking away without a word.

tylerchill said...

Mary, I'll second that. Walk away. There is no cure for them. There are no magic words that will make them see. None. Your mentally healthy eyes see a relationship. They see you as simply a tool to help them get what they want. No more. No less.

Think of your favorite narcissist as an amazingly sophisticated robot that will ceasely try to get what it wants through you. Each time it fails it will emotionlessly try something new. For example, let's say it asks you to drive it to the airport at 4AM and you say "No"; it will next say in an angry tone "I hate you, do this for me" and you say "No"; it will then say "I love you, will you do this for me?" and you say "Yes." It has learned how to get what it wants. Once it gets what it wants it no more need for you so it will not engage with you again. The next time it needs to go the airport it reviews its past dialogs and says ""I love you, will you do this for me?"

Every minute you spend on them is a minute you didn't spend on yourself.

Cathy said...

It's been YEARS since I've been on your blog. You, dear woman, were as valuable as my therapist in helping me climb out of a deep hole and into the truth of my childhood at the hands of my mother. We even corresponded via email at one point and you ripped right through my denial and blindness - the unreality I had been forced to accept to maintain my sanity as a child - and made me look at the truth...which actually saved my life and my sanity. For that, I am eternally grateful to you. I hope and pray that you are doing well!

DebraAnne said...

To me, it doesn't matter WHY the narcissist do what they do... I'm sure they have their reasons that can be explained scientifically or psychologically. Bravo. The truth is I couldn't care less because I've been severely damaged by them. In a normal relationship, you can get away from a narcissist as soon as you realize who they are, but as a child you can't. A child is not resilient to a narcissist's delusions. A child does not know how to put up a shield to deflect their attacks. A child does not know how to protect themselves against things they don't understand. A child is completely susceptible to the traps and mind games concocted by their narcissist parents and is targeted because of this reason. Your soul is taken hostage and being enslaved until there's no love left in you. It'll take years, or even decades before you're released. The damage is done and all you're left with is a long road to recovery, if you're lucky. So yeah, i've got no sympathy for people like my parents. However, if an individual is just someone with NPD and hasn't hurt anyone around them then great, good for them, especially if they're taking precautions by seeking counselling. Just try not to have any children and stay away from us... I've got no patience or sympathy in dealing with people like that... i've had enough.

mulderfan said...

So happy to see there is another person who simply doesn't care WHY they do what they do! I've already wasted far too much mental and emotional energy looking for answers.
No recovery is possible as long as we let these monsters live rent-free in our heads. Unless we kick them out of our minds and our lives, we will remain trapped like a hamster rattling around endlessly on a wheel.
There is NO answer and, if there was,it wouldn't change a single thing.
"I've had enough" is the perfect response to their crazy-making.
Enjoy your serenity. I'm guessing you've earned it.

Unknown said...

Alicia. I don't believe they lack self awareness. I firmly believe they know exactly what they are doing. And how it affects others. It is done deliberately and consciously,with malice forethought. Which makes their actions that much more evil and cruel. They may be crazy but they are not insane. They know exactly what they are doing. They will all burn in he'll forever,tho they don't believe it. By the time they find out ,it will be too late. And I will have no sympathy for any of them. They will have brought it on themselves.

bonsai said...

Anna, it's great to see another post from you. I'm so sorry that it was prompted by such a negative experience.

Thanks for breaking it all down into such detail, as usual -- super helpful!

Anna Valerious said...

Eh, it wasn't a negative experience. Since I bring a gun to a knife fight, it wasn't a big deal. It was like picking low-hanging fruit, or like hitting a slow ball over the plate, etc. I was actually amused at the new tact this narcissist took by proudly wearing the label and waving it like a flag to prove they're a victim. (Enough metaphors and similes?)

To sum up, I was entertained. I'm glad to know it is helpful to you and others. Rock on, Bonsai.

Sucrets said...

I'd rather talk to real* vampires than to the narcissistic type. Far less treacherous.

*aka the traditional bloodsuckers of fiction

Candice said...


It was great to see your post! I just wanted to pass on some info.

1. For Chris' list of Characteristics of a Narcissistic mothers, most links are gone (including the one on this site). This is one of the few that remain.


This list was an epiphany for me. It not only gave me a moment of recognition as to what my so called mother was, but also gave me the tools to figure out some of the rest of the stuff she was doing behind my back.

2. For some reason the new/2nd edition of "Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry" does not contain the chapter about hypnosis. However, the original version (blue cover) is available on Kindle and from third party sellers. This was a surprise since the hypnosis section was the most useful for me.

3. I found this online, it's Kathy Krajco's ebook on NPD


Hope all is well with you. Trying to get Narc free, but they keep up with the smear campaigns to cover the original crime. All the best!


Daniel said...

"We are not bad people because we have lowered empathy"

The very definition of "bad person".

Anna Valerious said...

Bam! You nailed it.

Unknown said...

OMG, someone has GOT to stop propagating this myth that narcissists are abuse victims themselves!!! I know this is not true and it just validates them and gives them permission to be bad since they are victims. My family has told me, many times, from all different members, that the problem with my Spawn of Satan mother is that she was told she was a princess from birth and treated as such. She got everything she ever wanted or asked for, she was doted on constantly. She was never denied in any way, her wishes were never challenged. She suffered no consequences for bad behavior and, indeed, it really WAS all about her, all the time. No need to point out what a selfish, horrible, greedy person this would turn out. After she had two children -- who she calls accidents to their faces, she abandoned them at the very first opportunity. After that, on weekends and Holidays, all sorts of gaslighting, physical and emotional abuse took place for decades, and it's still ongoing today. To put the idea out there that this "poor creature" has suffered terribly is an insult to me and all the scarred survivors of these monsters against Nature. Stop saying they were mistreated !! It's a complete lie and really rubs salt in our wounds. Haven't we suffered enough ??

Unknown said...

My NM sometimes shows a new twist to these awful behaviors, i'm wondering if anyone else experiences this: Whenever i inform her of something going on with myself (depression, chest pain, fibromyalgia, etc) she literally steals my condition and starts telling anyone and everyone that she's got this condition --- the same one i just told her about. Never mind that she never had it before -- she's got it now.
It's creepy beyond expression. How does this serve her ? What is she trying to achieve? to invalidate my experience ? Is she envious of me to the point where she even wants to take on my health problems ? I haven't heard other people complaining about this and i really question how and why this happens. She is one sick puppy. And, yes, all the other horrible N-tic behaviors are there, just that this seems like a less common one that i'm not hearing about. Are other people going through this specific problem, too ?

mulderfan said...

Very common! My NM would get whatever I might have but a 100 times worse. No way is a narc going to share the spotlight with ANYONE, ANYTIME!!!

tylerchill said...

@Renee Lee I believe that narcissists do feel pain. But in their minds the only antidote to their pain is someone else's pain.

Narcissists see themselves as either perfect or useless. No in-between. They see the world as "zero sum." For example they believe that there is only so much happiness to go around, It's finite. So if you feel happy then, they believe, you are taking potential happiness from them.

The antidote is to leave them forever. They are sick and believe everyone else is the cause of their sickness. They will never change and never seek help because they don't believe for a minute that the source of their unhappiness is them. They can't. Too much is at stake in their minds.

Your mission here is survival not understanding. Better alone then with one of these. Separation. No contact. To never speak with these bloodsuckers again is the goal.

If you can't separate physically at the moment then do so emotionally . It's like "I see you but I can't hear you." That drives these creatures crazy because they thrive on recognition.

How not to pick yet another one? I have no clue.

Daddysgirl said...

My Nom planned her last stabs to my heart to occur after her death. I hope I never know the hatred that flowed through her veins. Rest In Peace Nom......if you can.

Awisermannow said...

Well said! And a good point brought out. They do regard love,attention,praise,compliments as limited resources. So the more other people get,the less there is for them! They want ALL of it-all the time! Selfish ungrateful beings(I don't call them people or human). And even if they do view these qualities as unlimited,they still get mad when anyone else gets any,just out of pure jealousy. They don't want anyone to get compliments or attention or praise-except themselves. Anna,you are brilliant! Thanks for your well written and insightful articles.

Daddysgirl said...

Are narcissists even human? There were times in my horror I wondered about this. How can they destroy your life with INTENT and you are their child? Why? I am just glad it is over. 60 years of hell.......

tylerchill said...

"Are narcissists even human?" is a profound question. I believe that one of the reasons that dogs are so revered by so many of us is that they reflect our emotional state even before we know we are in an emotional state.

Our thousands year old love for these creatures is based on this reciprocal recognition between our species.

So yes in that aspect my dogs in my life have been more "human" my parents.

Anna Fairgrieve said...

I came here many years ago and Anna helped me to recognise that my mother was a narcissist.

So thank you Anna for your help.

I want to comment on this issue of self-proclaimed narcissists and the tendency of therapists to blame abuse for their 'condition'.

I recently saw a documentary on the history of the DSM. These guys literally make stuff up. On this documentary there were at least a dozen different psychotherapists and psychiatrists admitting clearly that they did not know how to fix people's problems and that there was actually no such thing as mental illness. They admitted that the whole 'chemical imbalance' thing was conjecture. Apparently they discovered certain drugs changed people's behaviour (quelle surprise) and therefore assumed that there was a chemical imbalance. One guy said it was like saying that there was an imbalance of aspirin in the brain because aspirin cured the pain of headaches.

Further, I would like to make this very clear about narcissists. They are not created by abuse. My personal take on this is that genetics plays a very big part in the whole thing. The propensity towards a complete lack of conscience and empathy then determines the choices they make. Let me be direct here however, they make their own choices. This has become very clear to me just recently. My oldest son was diagnosed by a child psychiatrist with Aspergers syndrome. But we have only just discovered that this person is a deeply disturbed person who was abusing his younger relatives with abandon. We figured any anomolies in his behaviour was because of the Aspergers. We knew nothing about the abuse. We had a great deal of trouble with him as a child because he was bossy to his siblings, and refused to accept that he was wrong. But even knowing stuff about narcissism we still didn't pick up on his behaviour. I think it was masked by the fact that we saw him as mentally disabled. Turns out he was not. He is a genius. He gave us what we wanted, 'repented' when he was told to, even managed to convince us he was a 'christian'. He was never a christian. The ability of these people to mimic is terrifying. No wonder people with no understanding of psychopathy are convinced as to their good will.

I am sure there are sweet natured kids who are diagnosed with Aspergers. I am equally sure that there are psychopaths who are diagnosed with Aspergers.

My son hid his behaviour from us for years and managed to convince his younger relatives that they were the problem not him. If they told their parents, they would get in trouble. He destroyed their childhoods. We are still reeling from this.

Our son was NOT abused as a kid. We even went so far as to ask him if he had been abused at any point. He was adamant. He had NOT ever been abused.

I have no more faith in psychology, and any self-styled narcissist (why would we believe anyone online anyway there is NO proof) who comes to a very very popular and helpful website and has a go at the admin needs to be broomed to the kerb.

I am SICK and tired of abusers getting all the attention and sympathy from those who are either ignorant or just dumb and then using the love and care of their own families to grow fat. Then they claim they have been badly treated because their longsuffering victims finally grasp the courage to speak up. Cry me a river creeps!

Just remember though. They are like cockroaches. They will survive a nuclear holocaust. Rather than seeing them as a robot, see them as terminators. They are literally NOT going to stop, they are simply carrying out the programme in their heads.

boredincyberspace said...

OMG, that was so funny. Poor, poor little narcissist. I feel so bad for her/his hurt feelings (NOT!)!

Allison Conrad said...

"Do you know how you keep yourself from getting stuck in an abusive relationship with a narcissist? Talk. To. Us."

Oh, my God, I think the hilarity here just broke my brain for good!

sam chic said...

wow... hahaha

ya just like my ex ... famous for saying things like

ya sure i said cruel and awful things to you,, its how i deal with stuff.. i get angry and want to say whatever i can to hurt you.ive always been like this. YOU should understand this about me and not hold it against me.. why do you have to hold grudges all the time and be bitter. You need to be be more understanding of what i go through.

sigh ..

always we need to be the bigger person, they always have an excuse lol

Unknown said...

I hope i can get some feedback from Daddy's girl. Your experience seems very close to my own horror show (more's the pity for both of us.) There is a HUGE problem with my going "no contact" since Satan holds the financial reigns. She is the happy controller of the legacies of three dead relatives. All of their earnings, savings, real estate, insurance, pensions, etc..... times three..... this is because she was a parasite and glommed onto these people and used them unto death.....sure enough, she inherited anything and everything they had. Never mind that they were my relatives too and i'm dirt poor and could really use help from Satan Mom.... she loves the control too much. When i tell her i'm struggling and suffering, she LIKES it. She is the worst kind of malignant narc "mother." Her latest schtick is to say that she's on her way to the poorhouse. Now that's frankly impossible when you've sucked the lifeblood of three prosperous people. She says that because (once again) she mirrors everything i say to her) she's a complete psycho. I had said the REAL truth "i am indigent, have trouble working because of severe physical and psych problems and am genuinely broke." Suddenly, she begins to claim poverty. I'm not an idiot. She goes to the beauty salon weekly, doing her hair, nails, pedis, you name it. She has many other luxuries. Ergo, she canNOT be broke. Broke people cannot go to the salon at all --- they are broke. The upshot is, after 50 some-odd years of actual torture, legit torture, i feel that i deserve to have what's coming to me after she dies. It is NOT a tiny pittance, despite her lies. I have earned that money the hard way, i've nearly died three times from her abuse and still go through it today. No, i do not want to walk away penniless..... i deserve whatever i can get. There is no reason for her to will it to someone else..... there almost IS no one else (not much family left). So, odds are better than fair that i WILL get something --- and it could be a big pile. Here's the problem : The mean people live forever; she's 76. What if she hangs on till she's 100 ? ANd the coup de grace is just what Daddy's girl said "she might want to hurt me from beyond the grave." I can't grasp ANYone being so evil as to soul-murder their only daughter and then to shaft her further from the "beyond." Why do they have no limits? I've suffered enough for a dozen people. When is it ever enough for these sickos ? Why do i keep getting kicked in the teeth ? over and over and over ? I can't understand. I adopt homeless kittens for f__'s sake. I help people whenever i can. Why does she continue to do horrible, HEINOUS things to me, over and over ? Why won't it ever end ? I'm scared because i can feel that my ability to "maintain" is worn through... her next attack is very likely to result in my pushing her down a flight of stairs. And i won't even be wrong because this thing is the definition of evil and it will be the work of God if someone takes her out. This piece of garbage should have been smothered at birth. No one knows how many people it's leeched off of. How many people it's driven to death and destruction. No exaggeration.... my poor stepfather worked himself to death rather than be home around that thing. Now he's in the ground and she lives free and easy, fat on the hog, buying new handbags and jewelry whenever it wants. There is NO justice in this world. Certainly no fairness. If this is too much, apologies to you, but imagine decades of being horribly abused by your own "mother".... never once receiving a hug or an "i love you." No one can know how gutting this has been. I'd be happy to hear stuff that will HELP. Things like "you shouldn't be upset" don't help, thanks.

Unknown said...

it struck a real nerve reading "getting out of the dark" and the other person's thoughts about these satanic monsters, once they grow old and "harmless." Truly, my Satan Narc mom must be battery powered direct from the Devil. She APPEARS to be a shriveled, very ugly, little old lady.... in reality, she has more energy than a 30 year old, though she's close to 80. She still salivates at the idea of tearing into someone else, tearing them down, gaining something for herself, ANYthing. And the evil spirit does NOT get slow or quiet with age. It's frightening to see that the demon within is actually more virulent and powerful than earlier in it's life.
One big question remains, when i lose my sh___ as i'm pretty sure i will, having endured fiftey years of this very vicious treatment, will the law cut me ANY break at all ? I mean, there is a file ten inches thick documenting that this creature truly made me very ill emotionally... to the point where i can't work, form relationships or enjoy life in any way. Let's just say we went for a boat ride and Satan-mother slipped under the waves or choked on a banana or any G.D. thing.... can't ANYone mitigate what happens to me based on all of the decades of child abandonment, neglect, abuse and plain ol' torment? It's unbelievable that those things should count for nothing. And, no, i haven't lifted a finger, but i sure wish she'd slip on a banana peel. Her worst offense is causing me to have no faith in God. A Loving God would never allow something like IT to thrive, He would never allow a thing like that to inflict itself on innocent children, ruining their lives forever. It would have been kinder to shoot both of us at birth..... that is the amount of damage she's done.... so much so that normal, decent, enjoyable and loving lives have been totally impossible. If that's not a reason to give that thing the death penalty, then there IS no reason good enough. Little children looked up at her, begging for love, begging for care. We never got either one. We only got shoved aside, told we were a bother and abandoned. Why does she never pay for what she's done ? How long can the heart break from injustice, receiving no relief, ever ? why does this keep happening ? Haven't i suffered enough ? Surely, fifty years must be enough. I need this to be over. I can't bear one more day. I can't do it.

tylerchill said...

To Renee Lee

I closed my eyes one day and said fuck the money and went no contact. Mine lived to 94 BTW.

Two obvious facts. They use money to control you. You can only be controlled if you don't think you can make enough money to live on your own.

Get it? The message they want you to believe is that you suck and only they can save you.

The down side is that you will have to start from scratch. And you may never be rich. The upside is that you run your own life on your own terms and stop giving a fuck what they think about you.

Don't get me wrong, every day is painful for a bit, you are always second guessing yourself, and, yes, you ain't rich but it does feel good to breathe your own air.

bonsai said...

I walked away from what would have likely been a 6-figure inheritance when I went col-contact with my mother in 2005. It just wasn't worth it any more. It took me 40 years to see that she wasn't going to ever improve; rather, she was only getting worse with time, and the intensity of her neediness towards me was only worsening because all of her friends had already thrown in the towel and said "enough."

So now, at age 87, she lives in an extended-stay hotel in a major northeastern US city, getting the staff to run errands for her and tipping them heavily to do so. Only one of my siblings is still in touch with her, and he's completely haunted by dealing with her. I feel very sad for him, but I try to support him as much as I can. The one silver lining is that we've grown closer through this ordeal.

Cutting contact with her was difficult at first; it felt a bit like an exorcism for awhile, but then things rapidly improved. I've worked as a teacher and in social services and my husband is a letter carrier for the US Postal System, so no, we'll never be rich. But I regret nothing. I finally became my own person when I stopped having to adjust to her, conform to her, walk on eggshells around her, and hear her talk about how much money she'd be leaving me. Not worth it.

Unknown said...

i wish it were just that simple and easy. Yes, we ALL want to be free of more Malignant narc abuse. In my life, i've had to settle for keeping 200 miles and a lot of phone line between us. Phone lines that lie dormant because i never really WANT to talk to that thing. But there IS minimal contact. I'm not sure i care anymore if it's right or wrong; if being minimally civil leaves my "hand in the game" enough so that it could be helpful to me down the line, i feel that it would be stupid to NOT be minimally civil. There are no guarantees. We all know how these psychos operate. I can say though that the "cat is out of the bag." I let her know that i'm fully aware of her "disorder" and that i find it completely intolerable. Once, i had to drive her to a funeral. Upon returning to her home, she left me standing in the driveway for 5 minutes (with my bladder in great distress) She knew good and damn well that i needed to get indoors and use that bathroom. This was her pure evil streak coming out, yet again. One excuse followed another : "oh where did i put those keys, anyway " etc, etc. While i hunched in great discomfort. Then i let her have it : "i know just what you're doing and i'm not standing for it" i said. I undid my jeans and zipper and assumed the position. Well, we got inside quicker than i could type it here. So i'm saying that, yes, i keep a tiny, wee-little relationship going, just in case thing might work out well for me down the line..... but i do NOT invest myself emotionally. I truly do NOT care what IT does or what happens to it. So, not much lost there, get it ? Balanced against the potential for real gain. Doesn't seem too dumb to me. I don't let her use me as a doormat anymore and i call her on her lousy behavior. You can't really say that she's "winning" at this stage. She has all the marbles, financially, but that was always the case and will be the case until she's dead. So i stay "checked out" emotionally, and realize that there could be a benefit in the future or not. That's the saddest thing to ME.... that she can actually contemplate shafting me from beyond the grave; me, her only daughter, the one she walked out on, caused to be beaten, molested and every other G.D. thing..... what sort of freak could heap even MORE punishment on me ? That's why i'm sad..... it never seems to end. Even at her death, i might still be suffering. Please Jesus, let these wastes of tissue fry in Hell for eternity.

Amy said...

Dear Anna,
just wanted to mention a small anecdote from my life. Years ago I was in tough conflict with my N mother and had not yet decided to go NC when she sent me a nice postcard with the citation from Antoine de Saint-ExupĂ©ry, „One must learn to look from the outside to the inside. Man’s worst enemy is the surface.“ Suggesting I simply didn’t want to understand that she only had the best motives in the world and I was simply too stupid and selfish to see how well-meaning she truly is.
Another classic she once wrote me went, “You don’t know me at all”. After having lived with her alone for 8 years and having spent about 20 years to her ranting and raving and scrutinizing and analysing from all perspectives just what a poor victim she was!, and losing myself in the process because I was so busy following the twisted ways of her mind.
They never get it. Never. As someone already commented above, they are like hamsters in a wheel; we don’t need to run with them.
Thank you again for your blog, it really was helpful.

Writer in Washington said...

I just read this and I immediately thought that it was my husband's ex that wrote it. Probably because the kids have all come to us for help. I've pointed them to this site, and others, and supplied them with the information that they needed to understand what a leech she is. Honest to God, I think it was her. You handled her brilliantly, except that she got the attention she craves.

Anna Valerious said...

Trust me, this isn't the kind of attention she was craving.

Writer in Washington said...

MN ex-wife will take any attention she can get--just so long as she is getting it!!! My MN stepdaughter is exactly like her--everything has to circle around her or she will go out of her way to make it happen. It is nothing short of crazy, regardless of anything else they would like to call themselves. Although their favorite is "victim" of course. LOL. Happy weekend!

TruthSeeker said...

Your post is brilliant, Anna. Of course your blog is a threat. The narcissist's worst nightmare is an educated empath. When I started writing my blog about them, the narcissists unfriended me on FB. LOL! Sharing my story here:

caroline said...

thank you anna! i laughed my a** off! i am again living with satan and her flying monkey for the past 6 years.after leaving home at 17 and moved to france,returning at 49.(she still sent me broken dollar store childrens toys as gifts)i got sick and couldn't make it on my own.i'm struggling to leave and your valiant attitude is so helpful as i cringe in my locked room. i am convinced i can;t make it on my own.here's to the future!

Priscilla said...

Got to this post now. Dealing with all the sh** left by being raised by 2 narcissists, including seeing some narcissists traits (fleas, I guess) in me. Not proud of that, and on the verge of tears for days. The last thing I want to become is them. Got into my 40s without a life partners, without a good job, without my own place, without controlling my own emotions. I am always afraid, always feeling a failure, always feeling unloved. At the same time, I don't know how to love and I can be very manipulative. Yes, narcissists are really just good people with a bad condition [irony here]. They destroy the lives of those they are supposed to care and help find their ways in this world because, oh poor them, they don't know better. They refrain love and support for their children, they practice parental alienation, just because they need attention.

Just. give. me. a break.

tylerchill said...

In my opinion you do know how to love or you wouldn’t have written this about yourself. Almost all of us children of narcissists manipulate not to hurt people but to meet a fundamental need that we were taught we don’t deserve. There is a big difference between manipulating to use and manipulating to get love.

You do not need to control your emotions. The opposite you need to feel your emotions. And that includes anger. Find a therapist who does this. We don’t need more thinking we need more feeling.

Once you live your emotional life in the open you give other people a door into your soul. Take the chance.

After 30 some years of every therapy known this worked. Our parents knew how important expressing our feelings are which is why they denied it. To control us.

Living a full emotional life is the best revenge.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Caroline, who told you that you couldn't make it on your own? THEM? Don't believe them. Hope you can get out. Six years is too long.

LoriB said...

Anna.. It was because of you, and the fact that I stumbled onto your blog ten years ago, that I am out and alive. I found you while desperately trying to wrap my head around what I had been dealing with since I was 16 years old and married my narcissistic husband 20 years prior; I finally found some answers and a name for what I was dealing with, and the courage to make a change. So THANK YOU for YOUR courage in helping others to see the light. I still struggle with PTSD, and the fallout of the effects on my son and grandchildren. Due to N's continued attempts to poison, control and abuse them, thank god my son keeps his distance and protects his four daughters. He sweeps into their lives once or twice a year, to grandly make a big show of throwing them money on their birthdays or near Christmas; he enjoys the spectacle of this but has no interest in actually knowing them. This is perfectly fine with me and my son. I taught my son to see his father as someone you love, who just happens to have a contagious, deadly disease - you can still love him and keep the few good memories you have of him, but you must protect yourself, keep him at a distance and keep him from infecting your children. This has been an effective way for him to be able to deal with him as an adult. His father has moved far away now, and has found a new supply. Again, this is fine with us. The grand kids occasionally ask about him but for the most part he leaves everyone alone now, content with his fresh supply. His ability to move on and effectively forget his son and grandchildren is something that is difficult for me to watch my son deal with. But he and his kids have me, and I lavish love and attention on them all, all the time. Again, Anna, just know that you have literally saved lives by speaking out, and many of us are forever grateful for that!

tylerchill said...

She isn’t even doing her blog anymore and you see what a far reaching effect? Like my city says when you see something say something.

Katrina said...

Anna, so good to hear from you on your blog! I just pulled it up to deal with a situation all these years after you signed off! Life has come a long way-my MN has passed & I have walked away from the mob mentality sibs for years now. You are SPOT ON to this commenter. CLUELESS was an understatement!! See you on Facebook! Katrina

Anna Valerious said...

See me on Facebook? Not sure how you're gonna do that...

caroline said...

NPD is a misleading term. They are sociopaths. THEY ARE SOCIOPATHS.Never ever think of them as anything else.Would you be in the same room,shop with ,live with a known sociopath? Thank you Anna.

AnOrphanForm said...

I know this post is 3 years old, but the responses are the best ever.

Anonymous said...

Oh go Anna! Go girl! That's a fantastic reply. They are too narcissistic to see they are narcissists.