Tuesday, November 11, 2008

They Hide From Truth Because Their Deeds are Evil

My head has been pulled way out of the subject matter of this blog lately so that is why posting has been minimal. It's just the way it is and there isn't much to be done about it. Consequently, I thought I'd rely on Kathy Krajco for some words for the wise taken from her book.

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There is an interesting point of religious doctrine on this that has been largely forgotten since the Middle Ages. It is that evil lurks beneath a beautiful exterior. In the vernacular today, we say that Beauty runs skin deep. We see this principle reflected in medieval paintings of the fall of the bad angels. They aren't depicted as ugly demons; they are depicted as beautiful spirits indistinguishable outwardly from the good angels. In other words, malevolence disguises itself with sanctimony.

It's easy to see why. No one wants others to see them as bad. Moreover, that's the kiss of death to a predator, because it's like a repellant that warns potential prey to mistrust and stay away from him. Indeed, if you were a malignant narcissist, what would be your biggest fear?

Exposure, right? You're like a vampire to whom the light of day is lethal. Your greatest fear would be the same as that of any hungry, stalking predator -- exposure.

You'd live in constant fear of people finding out what you are beneath your sheep's clothing, that you go around spreading the most heinous lies about anyone who has a better reputation than you, that the happiness and success of others galls you and makes you set about destroying it, that you just use people for your aggrandizement in a manner that damages them and then just throw them away, that cruelly abusing and bullying people makes you feel high and mighty so that you can't resist a chance to make someone bend over for it or kick someone when they're down, that you want to take away anything others have that you don't have. You'd live in constant fear of others learning the shocking truth about your past exploits. You'd live in constant fear of people getting a whiff of the spirit in which such things are done -- the spirit inside you.

Because you're a destroyer. And no easy prey would venture within a mile of you if they knew what's inside you, would they? Because nothing can cover the smell of the spirit in which such things are done. A whiff of that spirit gives people the Big Chill. They abhor it. Even the most hardened criminals are above doing things as sickening as the things you do.

So, though there is such a thing as an out-of-the-closet narcissist (one who needn't and doesn't hide how bad he is and may even show it off to terrorize those at his mercy), far more often than not, people with NPD take great pains to make sure they have an angel-face and a reputation to match. (Exceptions are those narcissists seeking negative attention in lieu of the other kind.)

Their image is precisely the negative of their true selves. In other words, the false image they create dis-simulates their true self. What Makes Narcissists Tick, pgs. 32-33 by Kathy Krajco.

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I decided to reprint this section of her book because the verse in John 3:19-20 has been in my thoughts lately. Her statements above are related:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

So today's dose of truth and reality is this: Evil must mask itself with good in order for it to make a living. Evil must hide itself by hiding the truth of who and what they are. Therefore, full truth (light) is anathema to evil.

You know this is true. You've tried to bring just a smidgen of truth to the table with the narcissist and you saw the hissing, spitting and reviling it invoked. The extreme reaction is the narcissist's attempt to get you to drop the holy water before he gets burned. That is not the moment to fumble or drop the truth. Thrust that stake deep into his heart and then put him in the ground. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Evil is an absence of truth which is why it must attach itself to some semblance of truth in order to exist. Evil is parasitic. It cannot stand alone. Pure lies don't sell. It is the truth that the lie attaches itself to that makes the lie attractive...or at least palatable. The lies of evil need to attach to goodness and truth in order to successfully hide in plain sight. Potential victims must not be warned off by the horrific sight and smell of their villainy. Even though the narcissist despises truth they are dependent on a certain amount of it in order to survive. I tell you this so you are not surprised by the mixture of truth amongst the big lies. Don't throw out truth just because an evil narcissist used it to his own ends either. Keep the baby...throw out the bath water.

Very rarely does evil completely expose itself and rarely is it completely exposed by someone else to everyone else. Knowing this, quit expecting evil to be readily apparent to everyone. Stop being surprised when the malignant spirit manages to successfully hide itself with a great pretense of goodness. Stop expecting evil to expose itself when he has no self-interest in doing so. Never expect evil to play fairly. Expect the greatest villains to hide behind the most impressive shows of sanctimony. You don't have to be religious to be sanctimonious, by the way. Don't make that mistake in logic. Sanctimony is hypocrisy ... and anyone can be a hypocrite whether or not they are a religionist.

“Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.” Francois de La Rochefoucauld

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

You are absolutely right as usual, Anna. Bring up something the N has done and watch them try to squirm their way out of it and squawk how lily-white their motives are. Rub their nose in it to make them face it, and see them try to escape. They will do ANYTHING to avoid acknowledging the truth, but the sad thing is, that would be the beginning of sanity.

Renewed

Terry Scoville said...

Dealing with my N brother has taught me to keep my mouth shut. Pick my battles carefully but not with him because I will never succeed in winning. He is like a Piranha, nibbling away on me and others to feed his deception and indulgence. No truth but his own, disillusioned & twisted reality. Distance is the healer. Masters of avoidance and deception. Very dangerous individuals indeed.

Anonymous said...

I often refer to my ex-NF as "Mr. Helpful" His cover is the good boy; modest, shy, and nothing but the best intentions. For example, he didn't want to say all those nasty things about his co-worker to get her fired, he had to. Her "terrible work ethic was destroying morale." In reality, she won an award they were both up for, so he launched a campaign to destroy her reputation, and it worked. Mr. Helpful wouldn't lie. To this day I don't think that poor woman has a clue what he did to her.

Anonymous said...

Ah, the hyprocrisy in their religiosity!! If it weren't so pathetic and didn't win them so many supporters, it would be laughable.

My N FIL -- how pious he is -- so he has said. All the time. Ad nauseum. Ad vomittum.

As he and his wife and spawn sat and ate all the food brought to my home on several occasions during my DH's last days, he would "impress" me with his tales of taking a widow food shopping EVERY SUNDAY after church. Damn nice guy.

As he sent me the address so I could write thank you cards to complete strangers for mass cards they sent, HE attended EVERY MASS said in remembrance of his son -- so that those who sent the cards would SEE HIM there.

He PRAYS for me (can I hear a hallalujah?)

His daughter (41 years old) wrote an email to my daughter (12 years old) to tell my child that: Grandpa was crying so hard on his way to church choir practice because YOUR MOTHER cut him off. He had to pull over. I've never seen him so upset.

That's odd. His daughter doesn't live in the same state as he, doesn't attend his church, is not even of the same denomination, and doesn't go to choir. How is it she KNOWS he did this??? No, she has never seen him so upset --not this time, not any other.

And the pious man, after taking food brought by others, including my family, after watching his 4 other children, their spouses and child, also take gifts meant for me and my children, after never bringing a simple box of crackers into my home, then made a donation to his local hospice in memory of my husband.

He has truly earned his wings.

- Kathleen

krl said...

Oh....man!!! This couldn't be a more timely post, Anna....

Good Lord! I just heard from my Sis that Nmom (age 80) wants to be BAPTISED! She isn't sure she ever was....and wants to 'mark' the day by this. It will be 'HER DAY'...and my Sis is supposed to come and ONE of her grandchildren and her Christian Counselor. (I never mentioned this...but this counselor is one who counseled me years ago...and Nmom got in the 'act' because I had started talking about 'family'...and somehow finagled her way in until she was then 'in therapy' by this same woman. Good buddies, now. You can imagine how I shut the hell down...AND shut the hell up. Talk about the Ultimate Betrayal!)

So..Nmom will have HER DAY....and DumBadDad has to stay home and watch the ONE grandchild's dog....(this grandchild is 16 now....and is my Nbrother's kid...).....So...isn't Nmom all 'good and pious'? She makes me puke. Sis says she just doesn't know if she is up for it. I told her to wear her garlic and crucifixes if she goes. (She actually laughed and it takes some for her to do that since she is a preacher's wife and all....Hahaha....) What a cozy little 'coven' Nmom has going. Yechhhttthhhh....bleccctthhhhhhh.

Thanks for the post.....and for the 'vent'. Sorry if it was all fragmented....but think about it: It's the 'fragmentation' that made us all 'crazy' to begin with. Ns suck.

Anonymous said...

My mother is upfront with her personality. My uncle is not. He hides behind the meek, mild mannered facade. But...his words betray him because he speaks cruel things and things that have no place to be spoken and then he sends his protectors ie daughter/stepdaughter to relay the messages (of anger or sympathy) for him. Direct? Never. He always makes sure he is in the * I feel so sorry for him* corner of who ever it is that rallys to his cause.
I made an error in judgement over a situation that has come to my attention as of a few days ago. Thankfully I understood what has happened and won't repeat it. God just lets me keep learning and hopefully I passed this lesson.
Thanks for the site. I read often.

paisley penguin said...

A little over a year ago was the last time I have spoken to my N MIL. She came in to our home and proceeded to throw tantrum after tantrum about why she wasn't getting her way with my SK's.

Seriously, to see a 50+ woman sobbing hysterically in your dining room really is something to behold. I've only seen her like that once before - she had been off her depression meds.

After calling me a Bitch (sorry for the language) in front of her grandchildren, her husband (my hubs step dad) physically threatened me. They only left my home after I said I would call the police.

The hubs and I had tried numerous times to explain to my N MIL that we were the parents and to stop disciplining them, treating them differently, always buying things for them, assuming her plans were set in stone and essentially running our family.

I am conveniently the scapegoat for why she can't get her way. In fact, her comment to me via email that I have changed towards her and she only wishes she could understand what is wrong to help me - BULL!

Then meeting with my husband to try and talk sense in to him to leave me by telling him she never liked me is also - BULL!

As I have gotten distance I have gotten more clarity and reading your blog has helped me too.

They finally agreed to see our counselor on our dime. He has said my N MIL is no way near ready to admit any wrong doing or apologize for her behavior.

Over the past few months requests to see the kids when they are at our house (they live with their mom during the week and we have the kids three weekends a month from Friday to Monday) have fallen down to almost nothing. I mistakenly saw this as her giving up. I will never underestimate her again. I found out Sunday she has been going up to my husbands ex's apartment and seeing the kids. She never goes in but asks them to come down to the parking lot.

Several times in the past my N MIL has threatened to hire someone to "take care of that whore" (my husbands ex wife) and now she has nothing but wonderful things to say about her. I can only imagine I have now replaced "that whore" and am now so marked.

Granted she is just using the ex to get what she wants instead of being an adult and working things out with us. She even went so far as to ask my husband why he can't get along with his ex. Whatever!

Sunday night I told my husband this was the last straw. We certainly can't control what goes on when the kids are not at our house but we can we they are. I want to totally cut the N MIL off. That means no Christmas, not other holiday celebrations, no birthday celebrations - no nothing!

For my own peace of mind and our marriage he has agreed.

Thanks for listening and keep up the good work here. I don't know what I would do without this blog!

Anonymous said...

We told my ex N-friend that we had planned to go to my in-law's house one particular weekend to rake leaves and clean out the gutters at their house. My husband's father was in his late 70's, and we didn't want him climbing ladders or raking a huge yard by himself.

My N told us that there was a position in his company that my husband would be perfect for. He had to rework his resume, a cover letter, and provide five writing samples. The place my husband was working for was slashing hours and laying people off. He had been sending out resumes for weeks to no avail. He had done some freelance for the company, so we figured that his chances of getting hired were good.

It was Sophie's choice, apply for a job with a company that paid well and had good benefits, and postpone our yard work plans, and risk that my father-in-law would go ahead without us and possibly fall off a ladder.

My husband spent all weekend getting the application package together. My N had him drop it off at his house on Sunday night, he was going to hand it to his boss personally, and recommend my husband.

Two weeks passed and we hadn't heard a word. My husband mentioned to N that he was going to give his boss a call to see if he could drop by and talk about the position. N strongly advised against it, his boss hated when applicants bothered him when he was busy, and it would be akin to cutting his own throat.

A month passed with still no word, and my husband called the company's human resource department, checking on the status of the position. He discovered that it had not been filled, because it did not exist, and also that there had been a hiring freeze for several months prior.

My N must have taken a great delight in the our anxiety over my FIL, enjoyed watching my husband essentially waste his weekend applying for a non-existent job, and my guess is that his resume was stuffed into the trash can at N's house as soon as my husband dropped it off.

You know what they say, if there's something you really need or want, a narcissist will make sure you don't get it. I ran into N's cousin a few weeks ago, and she had mentioned that N had been laid off from his job two years ago, and hasn't found a job yet. It seems that his scheming and lying has finally caught up with him.

LS said...

This post reminds me of an incident I had with my Nfather 20 years ago. I had made the mistake of going on vacation with him and my mother, to a favorite beach in S. Carolina. We stayed at a house belonging to one of Ndad's business associates. I don't often get to see the ocean, and it was our last day there. I wanted to take one last walk on the beach before heading home the next day. I was going to walk there, since our beach house was only 2 blocks from the beach.

My father insisted on going with me. I started walking, and he said no, let's drive. It didn't make any sense to me, but I didn't know I was about to be used. I got in the car with him, and he drove 10 blocks away to the store, where he announced to me that he was going to buy a bottle of gin (to replace the one he had finished off in one week)and he asked me not to tell my mother, but said I probably would tell her anyway. I asked him if he was planning to drink any of this new bottle of gin, and he replied "I might." When he came out of the store and got into the car, he opened the bottle of gin and filled an entire glass he had brought with him. I couldn't believe it. I never thought even he would stoop to that level of using me. Then he drove me to the spot where I wanted to take my walk. He tagged along about 10 paces behind me as I took my walk, sipping his gin.

Years later, after he quit drinking, or so he claimed, I told him how used I felt that day, how he only came with me to keep his trip to the store a secret from my mother. He said "I can understand why you felt that way, but that was not why I went with you." Yeah, right. As if I can't tell when I'm being used. He was the parasite and I was the host. He ruined my last walk on the beach during that trip, to satisfy his vile addiction. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if these people don't ever stop to think if they would've used their energy to go in a positive vein instead of the negative, how much could've been accomplished in terms of joy and strong families/friends/etc.? But then, I have to remember...it's not them...it's everyone else. :P

paisley penguin said...

I don't know how long ago the one anonymous poster;s husband submitted his resume and writing samples. I would suspect the N might have passed it off as his own?

Don't know enough of the situation but thought I would say this one thing.

What a terrible person!

Anonymous said...

This is off-topic of Anna's newest post, but I'd like to share this story because yesterday was Veteran's Day. My husband served in the Air Force, and I'm very proud of him.
At his funeral some Air Force personnel came, played taps, folded the flag and handed it to me. It was so touching. An airplane flew overhead and my 5-year-old nephew asked his mom "Is that Uncle Don's plane?"
Afterwards, everyone told me how beautiful the military honors were.

Well, everyone except my husband's family. They were silent. Heaven forbid anyone say something nice about anybody -- they either make a wisecrack to take it away or stay silent.

Exactly one week after Don died, his sister, the minion of her Nfather, called to tell me why she couldn't possibly say anything nice about my husband at his funeral. The main reason?

HER: "Well,did YOU KNOW that when he was 19 he joined the Air Force WITHOUT EVEN CONSULTING MOM AND DAD??"
ME: So? That was 30 years ago! Who cares?
HER: "Well, he LEFT US and DIDN'T EVEN CONSULT MOM AND DAD!"

And then I understood what she was saying -- HE committed the ultimate betrayal. He went and sought his own destiny.

I lost it. My husband was gone a week and this wacko was complaining about that and other nonsense. I let her have it, and she began to cry and say how "unfair" I was to her family because I expected them to say something nice about him (He WAS NOT the N in the family -- he was the only normal one).

She went and cried her N father's shoulder about how "mean" I was. And he promptly took action when he heard her story!!

What did N father do? Did he say "Gee, maybe you shouldn't call a widow and bring up things that are 30 years old? Maybe you should grow up a bit?"
NO!!!

He called his other 3 children and me and said:
"By the way, she was wrong. He DID consult me first about joining the service and IT WAS ME who TOLD HIM it should be the Air Force."

What a liar. I had always known my husband enlisted without consulting his parents first. He didn't want to attend the community college and they were pushing him to do that.

But even in my husband's death his N father had to make sure EVERYONE BELIEVED that HE HAD BEEN IN CONTROL of his son.

But he never once said he was proud of his son.

Well, I am proud of my husband.
So there, N father-in-law! I'm proud because, even at 19, he was self-motivated and self-disciplined and knew what he wanted --- unlike your other children, who are all dysfunctional.

- Kathleen

no more darkness said...

I have been reading this site for a while and it really helps- everything i have read is so true! I cant believe how predictable n's are. Yawn.
I have an n mother and an n mil and the two dads are enablers- phew! not an easy situation- sadly my brother and my husbands brother and sister are blind to this and want us back on the bottom rung to tame the beasts.
Since the birth of our daughter everything has changed- it's like we could see for the first time. I haven’t seen my mum(and dad) for 15 months- and my husband has just cut off contact with his whole family (after being phone/email/post bullied).
We are both in limbo at the moment struggling to make ends meet- we both have noticed what pushovers we are- and we never knew what to do with our lives, we were just being pushed and pulled in all directions by our families. It's the start of our independence- the n's were devouring us- we both have nightmares and suffer chronic pain because of all the emotional stress we have been through- all we want is peace- just to be free to enjoy the simple things in life-I sometimes cant believe me and my hub are still together sometimes after what we've been through- It's the love we have for our daughter that keeps us strong- a love they will never understand.

Anonymous said...

Great post. Tell it, Anna!!!

To Kathleen - I do think your comment is relevant to the topic, since it is about the hypocrisy of N's and what they do to enable their evil over lifetimes and generations. Like your husband, I too was accused of a very similar fundamental "crime" that no amount of time/goodwill could apparently take away {My supposed crime? I "left" my Nfam... uh - in normal families it's known as "going away to college"}

I feel like N families will label the strongest child with a contrived "crime" early on, one that has absolutely no basis in accepted social norms but is endlessly reinforced in family gossip/lore, and one that the target can never get out from under no matter what they do. The "crime" is generally perfectly acceptable and healthy behavior, but is bent in the twisted prism of the Nfam to be a way that they have been egregiously and fundamentally wronged, "forever". In my experience it provides an excuse for their motivation to dish out the most abuse to the strongest/sanest, shifts the blame away from them, and provides an explanation for their seething rage at being unable to completely annex the souls of all "loved ones"... and it also provides a handy attempt to set-up their true wish: ongoing one-way attention of NS: the "bad" person has no rights to family care, support, attention or help - but must forever provide all those things to the N's to "earn back" their place amongst this group of blighted human material.

Anonymous said...

To Kathleen

I, too am proud of your husband for breaking the N-cycle and for serving this great country! Blessings to you and your family!

saddened said...

Ok, what an incredible sight to see that my sister and I are not a lone with an Nmother. I'm 41 and she's 49 and we still get upset with her hidden, oops I didn't mean it cruelty. Now what do we do? Isn't there any way to have a relationship and create strong boundaries so as to have any type of relationship at all?! I've done the "cut-off" thing a few times, a few weeks, months, and even a year. She remained on good behavior realizing she couldn't treat me that way but slowly, sneakily, her fangs came out again! She's just hurt me and my sister twice in the past few weeks and I'm fed up, hung up on her. I don't hang up on anybody, then again no one and I mean NO ONE has ever treated me so rudely. What do we do??? Help?

Kathleen said...

If you just heard a thud, it was my jaw dropping to the floor. THANK YOU!! So much more makes sense to me now.
Reading different things about narcissism, I began to realize there was a "Golden Child." That would be my N sister-in-law. But I was confused as to why my husband was always expected to give more than the others did. We would invite his parents to stay with us for a week, and they would insist on bringing another son and his fiance (both in their 30s and neither living at home). We invited them another time, and they insisted on bringing their other grandson. We went there for a week, and my N SIL dumped her son on us for the week!! And we PAID for EVERYTHING he ate and did. This is the story of almost every visit! NONE of them EVER invited us to their home! We even bought a timeshare so that we could all see each other WITHOUT it being at our home and us supplying all the food -- and all of a sudden, they couldn't come! They all said they couldn't "afford" it. It was FREE!!! Except they would have to pay for their meals.

NSIL wrote an email to me after Don died. She said "It wasn't a FREE vacation. It was only a free place to stay." This is a beautiful place in Williamsburg, Va. Guess I didn't do enough for her!

HUH????? Yet every one of them came to our wedding vow renewal (my suprise to him several months before he died) and ate. NOT ONE CARD!!

And I told each of them that there would be an opportunity to speak at his funeral. AND THEY SAT THERE. Oh. Except his Nfather.

What a jerk. Ten people said wonderful things about Don, and then Ndad gets up. What does he say? He tells a story about a VERY HARMLESS prank my husband pulled -- when he was 13! Guffaw, guffaw. He said "That was typical Donald."

NO IT WASN'T. It was a TYPICAL 13YEAR OLD BOY.

When they realized I was upset that none had anything nice to say, one of his brothers told me "Well, dad called us all and said something that made sense. He said Donald left home at 19 so we really didn't know him."

His father gave them permission to discount 30 years of his life. My husband passed away three days after his 49th birthday.

Good for you to break away and go to college! My oldest left home for freshman year one month after Don passed away. I don't mean this cruelly, but I'm glad he died when he did. If he had lingered, I was fearful she might not leave. She worked very hard and was accepted into a wonderful college (in Williamsburg, Va.!), and I have an OBLIGATION to encourage her to fly.

I'm learning so much.

- Kathleen

Anna Valerious said...

Saddened,

You have just described the eternal pattern of dealing with Ns. There are no boundaries...however strong...that they feel obliged to respect. If you make it clear you won't take their crap (like going NC for a time) then they can 'behave' for a short time. But the moment you aren't looking they will start back in on their games. It is a never ending cycle. So it comes down to making a decision to either live with their stupid game-playing and relentless disrespect of your boundaries ... or you go no contact FOREVER. Keep reading here. There is a lot of information to help you get a fuller picture of what you're in for if you stay in contact as well as a strongly enforced no contact being the only path to peace for you. All the best.

Dee said...

Saddened,
Unfortunately, there really is no way to have a relationship with an N that is an any way meaningful. Once I realized what made my NDad tick (through this blog and other sources), it was easy for me to walk away. I idolized my father, up until the moment I realized that there is no room in his heart for ANYONE, let alone his own children.
It's very sad, yes, but until you have that "epiphany" (knowing they aren't capable of love), then go through the anger stage, you will then have such a sense of relief that I can't begin to describe. Then you can begin to feel sadness for the loss of a relationship that never was and never will be, but that is where the healing begins, because at this point you will have become stronger than you ever were and wiser, too.
Good luck on your journey, and to all the others who have yet to release the hope they carry in vain. It's so hard to let go of and it only shows your humanity is great.
Thanks to Anna and the late Kathy Krajco for their wisdom and understanding, they have truly earned their wings!

Anonymous said...

The only boundaries that work on an N are those that are heavily enforced with consequences that get an N to think "it's not worth it". Or, they just find "another way"(as mentioned). Either way, it leads to No Contact or very minimal contact. So you might as well do NC ASAP. The longer it takes, the harder it'll be.

Anonymous said...

For years I tryed to talk to my n family about their behavior.They just looked at me as the trouble maker. It`s always a double standard with them.They can treat you how ever they want but you are suppose to take it.Then when you have a n family that claims to be Christian, they all play that "honor thy mother and father" card.To them it means that I`m suppose to "take it." My n mom actually told me that no matter how she treats me, that the Bible says that I`m suppose to take it.I couldn`t believe what I was hearing. N`s never change. From what I`ve witnessed on both sides of the family, their meanness and vindictiveness get worse.

Anonymous said...

Unbeleiveable to read other's funeral stories..My nm and n sister (golden child) actually picked a fight with another sister (one of the outcasts) in front of my beloved aunt's body, because of NONSENSE. N-Sister then refused to participate in the funeral because she basically felt slighted by the widower at the wake. Can't make this stuff up! The story goes on and on, and NO ONE would believe it if they didn't make the mistake of doing much of this in front of many cousins and other family who were appalled and shocked. It was a nightmare. I always believed there were some boundaries of decency, but wow, was i wrong. My heart broken Uncle, burying his beloved wife was even distracted by their behavior. UUGH.

At least I can say the behavior was SOOOO egregious that it has made going NC all the easier. It was the last staw for me. Even with that said, I do have times I feel sad for "what was lost," even though it never existed anyway. I went to therapy about the whole thing, and the therapist told me : Let go of your Norman Rockwell ideas about you and your mother, cause you don't have a mother. Wow, she was right.

Anonymous said...

So what is it about funerals that freaks out the N so much? I too had a watershed type of "big reveal" experience with an N at a funeral. I was used to seeing this N really in control of her game, almost never lose her cool, and - above all - ALWAYS behave impeccably while in the public eye. Yet, suddenly at this funeral she behaved in ways that clearly defied the most basic and simple social norms. Social norms that the average child could follow. It was obvious that she was literally in some kind of personal panic and just improvising badly in order to draw [and keep] attention on herself.

Theories? Too much REAL tangible emotion around the N, that they didn't cause and can't control? Too much focus on someone else? Whatever it was, it was like seeing dracula get hit by sunshine!

The best thing about it was that the people around could for once see her as a highly questionable individual, and know at least part of the truth that she usually was so on top of hiding.

Sunset said...

"Mr. Helpful" - HA! That's something I've noticed with my mom - she's the "Perfect Mother" and there's absolutely nothing wrong with her family and you better not say otherwise!

Kathleen said...

Although I'm not glad that any of you went thru a funeral with horrible Ns, I am glad I'm not the only one! I struggled so long with what THEY did and how THEY acted -- it was costing me my health and interfered terribly with my grieving. I was so angry at THEM I found it hard to think of my husband.

We had just entered the wake. My 12-year-old daughter saw her daddy in a coffin. What a horror for her. There was a framed poem she had written for him several months earlier, knowing he wsa terminally ill. She knelt, said a prayer, and stood and turned. There was was N Grandfather -- and he says what? Not "Honey, this must be so hard. Grandpa is here for you." NOooooo.
He said "Hey, I WANT a copy of that poem. Okay?" And walked away from her.

She was being comforted by my brother's wife when my NSIL (my daughter's N Aunt) approached her and said "Hey, K. Do me a favor? My son (age 19) is having a hard time dealing with this. Go talk to him for me? Thanks, Sweetie." And walked off to socialize with folks she hasn't seen in 20 years.

My daughter thought to herself "I'm not babysitting YOUR kid." I'm glad I didn't know about this until afterwards or I would have booted out my N Sil.

A week after husband passed away, my Wino SIL (the one who left the repast to drink her cheap wine in her car), called and said:

HER: How are you feeling?
ME: I feel a lot of things.
HER: Well, I KNOW one thing you ARE feeling.
ME: Oh? What's that?
HER: You're upset that none of us said anything nice about him at the funeral.
ME: Yes, but too late now.
HER: Well, I was thinking about that and I know why I couldn't.

Then I heard about how he enlisted without consulting mommy and daddy. After that, I heard how he came back home, stayed a few months, and LEFT AGAIN!! He rented a home IN THE SAME TOWN AS THEM with some buddies. What nerve!!!

But his biggest sin??
"And he was 22 and I was 18 and he NEVER invited ME to hang out with him. He NEVER invited ME to go out drinking with him."

She did enough drinking at the repast (I did not serve alcohol - she drank in her car.)

My husband was a responsible adult who stopped "partying" years before I met him. SHE has never grown up and now has a drinking problem.

And that S.O.B. had the NERVE to become an independent adult.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Hi Anna:
Earlier I CHOSE not to respond to an N who thinks they are being *reasonable* in some requests. I've noticed that N's, even when attacking manage to ask for things that will be to their benefit. Of COURSE you have it better than them, that's why they need you to do this. Yes.How silly of me to forget. Ahem, anyway it was also sprinkled with a threat (that would most likely occur only if I were alone or in the presence of one or two other people whom they've got under their thumb).
My thoughts went to the Scripture in Luke 7:35 that says,"But wisdom is justified of all her children.", and I know that within that Scripture, is my answer for this situation. There is a difference in reacting and responding. I really do think it kills the N's when you don't react, but rather respond with few, yet carefully chosen/aimed words to their junk. Sometimes, no response at all is best. Remember, Luke 23:9 "he answered him nothing." Sure, let them revel in their "winning". Gloat party of one.

Katrina said...

So much has been said in the responses to this post. Its made me contemplate so many similar situations in my life. All colored by the N's in my family & their minions. Its so interesting to have come to viewmy childhood, youth, & adulthood through a different lens--now that I understand NPD & how its overpowered everything I've experienced with family of origin involved.

But to speak directly to Kathy's post--it is TRULY the MOST chilling thing in the world. She describes the very essence of the evil one prowling the world for the ruin of souls. Not from a religious standpoint, although I do frame MY life from that standpoint. Yet I would guess that even an atheist would probably agree to there being some sort of malicious energy in the world, that seeks harm for fellow human beings. If nothng else, we all hear about the news headlines.

Kathy has NAILED it. The predatory nature. Their greatest fear being exposure. Hiding their dark nature behind a "pretty face".

Setting out to destroy anything you have that makes you happy.
This post is almost clinical in its representations of the manifestatons of the N. I read it & was able to see blatant examples in my life of my evil sister Jezebel's work. I have become her #1 Target--an endless supply of NS.
Though I have gone NC,ithas only given her the green light to poison my world. From our community,to our huge family all over the country & into Europe. Very few have stuck by me, as she has methodically convinced them all that I am out to get the "family fortune", not only to the exclusion of HER, but at the expense of ALL OF THEM. They have treated me so cruelly,that I no longer intend to have anything to do with the whole sorry lot of them. I tried for several years to stay in contact with the rest of them,just not jezebel, but she destroyed any chance of that for me.

Kathy's summations of them having to make themselves look so sanctimonious is what makes me laugh the hardest at my family's pathetic situation. You see, I never tried to do that for myself. I just quietly, behind the scenes, started taking care of our parents in their elderly years. I never broadcasted it or touted my own horn about it. SHE did that. SHE broadcasted it around as much of the world as she could. But put a sordid, sinister spin on it. Painting the pcture that I WOULDN'T ALLOW her & one other Nsib in our town to help, or GET NEAR our parents.

HA!! They decided they WOULDN'T BE IN THE SAME ROOM WITH ME!!!

But that's the bill of goods they sold the world, while I was doing all the work by myself. Now that our parents are living their last days, they're all freaking out about their assets. Its so disgusting. Fortunately, their advance directives have been put in all the right hands. My DH & I call them VULTURES--& boy are they circling!!

Yes, Jezebel has been the main
vampire in our "family"--but there are no "innocent" bystanders.
They were all part of LISTENING to her bullshit,chewing it over with each other,AND with many others, & joining forces in excommunicating me from "the family".

HA! If they only knew how much I DON'T want to be part of their perverse little club they call "family".

For now, I an a bit of a "necessary evil" to them. Though they circumvent me as much as possible. I'm the "caretaker"for our parents. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WOULD HELP ME!!

Maybe someday the truth will come out. But I won't be sticking around to see it. Not ALL of the many many sibs & relatives are N's. But they've all allowed themselves to be sucked into her dark theatre & play the parts she directs them to. It's mind -boggling. Like whatever control from the depths of Hell that Hitler managed to exert over people. Just as the sensible people of that horrible time, running as far away as they could get from the evil, is the only means of self-preservation for them & their families. May God rest their souls & may we always remember!!!!

There is so much irony in this whole thing. Though they may go thru life "sanctimonious", imagine the horror of living that way--always afraid of being hit by the light! I take comfort in the fact that someday they will be.I leave their judgement to God, knowing it will be ultimate justice, & live my life happily without them.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Five bucks says that "Jezebel" is after the "family fortune" and wants to take it all at their expense.

"Fortunately, their advance directives have been put in all the right hands. My DH & I call them VULTURES--& boy are they circling!!"

Yup, and you can bet that they'll try to "take it all" from you, so to speak. Be prepared for anything. Like, contesting the will, making claims that you kept them away, blablabla.

TIM said...

THANK GOD, I AM NOT ALONE. IAM A 35 YEAR OLD, 6'5 TALL AND A FORMER RESERVE POLICE OFFICER. MY NMOM HAS MADE ME FEEL LIKE AN AUNT EVER SINCE I WAS YOUNG. I NOW KNOW THRU THIS BLOG THAT I HAVE BEEN EMOTIONALLY ABUSED AND NOW I SEE MY 7 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER BEING ABUSED BY MY NMOM AND NDAD. THEY CONSTANTLY TELL HER NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT HER MOM, ME HER DAD,OTHER GRANDPARENTS AND ANYBODY ELSE THAT ARE NOT AS GREAT AS THEY ARE. THANK YOU ANNA FOR THIS BLOG, YOU WILL ALLOW ME TO CLOSE OUT WHATEVER TIME I HAVE LEFT ON THIS EARTH IN PEACE AND MY ONLY CHILD WILL NOT GROW UP AND BE A N AND AS EMOTIONALLY ABUSED AS I HAVE BEEN. PLEASE CONTINUE ANNA POSTING AS TIME PERMITS, BECAUSE WITHOUT FINDING YOUR BLOG, THEIR SEEMED LIKE ONLY ONE WAY TO ESCAPE MY NMOM= MY DEATH

Katrina said...

So,what is in a heart,

Yes, I already expect the poopie to hit the fan in the future. I realized awhile ago that these Nsibs are just biding their time. The cowards wouldn't DARE try to get me while our father is alive, but God help me when he dies. For now, its just all passive aggressive--shunning,etc. I am preparing myself for when it becomes overt aggression, including a court of law. I have saved all the nasty emails,as well as my many requests for help, along with their haughty refusals, & my many invitations for getting us all together, for our parents' sake. I have the emails informing me we would be holding holiday celebrations with our parents at separate times, so as not to bump into each other. All at their initiation, not mine. I have proof. Just let them start something! They may be the greater number, but any judge would have to see what's really been going on here! And of course, you win the 5 bucks! That brush jezebel tries to paint me with is filled with her own slime! Too bad the others can't see that.

The funny thing is--our parents tell me all the time--"Take whatever you want." But I never do take anything. Because tho they portray me as an immoral cheat & thief, & they ASSUME I already HAVE BEEN making off with rare antiques, jewelry,etc.,the years I've tended to them--that was never me, so why prove them right? I just politely decline my parents offers, & know I can look myself in the mirror at the end of the day. AND pass a polygraph test. LOL!!! Katrina

Kathleen said...

While you're tending to your parents, please take pictures of anything in the home that's of any value.

- Kathleen

GraFXGrl98 said...

Hey guys- I am needing a little encouragment and this seems to be the only place I can find it. Here is my situation- recently went NC w/ NM and her minion Dad. Now NM has launched a slander campagin agianst me (expected & nothing new) but the people buying into it should know me better. My in laws, who do not know my N parents very well but DO know me (to be level-head and normal) and my brother (and his family). I knew it was coming but everyone all at once is getting to me a bit. Even my husband just spews whatever his parents think because he cannot think for himself. He is there for me when I'm upset but its not very sincere. Which hurts even more. Anyone else have experience with this? Only one I have on my side is God but I still feel alone. I know I will be fine but it's still frusterating.

Thanks for listening guys!!

Anonymous said...

Hi grafxgrl98:
This is precisely why I visit this board. It helps me keep perspective. It also keeps me from having to talk about it with my loved ones so much that they dread hearing me come into the room. For me, I've come to the realization that really, most people don't care about things that don't affect them. Yes, they will listen, but really, when it's all said and done they go back to their business with those things that affect them and their lives. Just human nature. That's where sites like this are good. You can read all the content that Ana provides, then read the posters comments and glean something that helps in your particular situation. Keyboards don't tune out or say shut up already! The hardest thing to do is stay quiet when the slander starts. Pray, ask God to give you wisdom and then go about your normal business and let the day take care of itself. A tall order, but I'm saying this from experience. Easy? No. Wiser? I like to think so. Don't ever feel you are alone. This site was started for the very reasons that you've stated in your post. Hoping this helps you. Keep moving forward. Even if you have to drag and shuffle a bit.

Anonymous said...

grafxgrl98:

I agree with Anon 10:41. Good points.

Also. I thought I'd share my experiences surviving a slander campaign from an exN in a small town, in case it could be helpful. At the time I just tried to forget it as much as I could [I know, nearly impossible!], hold my head up high, and concentrate on my own life and cultivating and focusing on connections with others outside the sphere of slander. I joined groups/clubs, reconnected with old friends, made new ones, worked to take my job to a new level, and read and listened to things that were inspiring to me and strengthening to my inner resources. This was very lonely and difficult at times, and it took some years to build up new groups of connections, but also took my life to many new places which has been extremely rewarding in the long run.

In my case the exN ultimately was hung by his own rope. While he was able to very successfully convince people initially with his button-pushing and highly emotive claims, he lost credibility over the years simply due to his own behavior and choices in general life circumstances, which ultimately undermined other people's confidence in him. By then, when people looked at my life, they someone positive and saw that I had many people in my life who respected me.

I know family situations are different [from personal experience] because they involve different ties then social ones, but in all slander cases the N's are experts at finding out what type of information will get a rise out of the people they are baiting, so they can seem very successfully at first. Only time will tell how things play out though. For the ones that end up believing the N's version, even over time, it may well be time to let those people go, as hard and as totally unfair to you as that is. What can you do? A truly worthwhile and fair person - even if initially hoodwinked by cleverly timed and placed slander - should come around in time. And the ones who don't? They have made a choice too, even if by default.

I think some people ultimately 'side' with the N not because they have thought about anything carefully, but because they too are in denial of N's evil, and in order to side with you [even though the real facts are on your side] they would have to face and process something about the world that they just don't want to face: namely that some people are truly evil and destructive towards the very closest people in their lives.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

It's good to hear that you are finding your voice. It sounds like you have much to deal with but you know where you want to go. In my case, the road to recovering from the devastation of an N was made much easier by talking to a counselor who understood and helped me to choose a path of action. Maybe it would help you, too, to do the best you can to help your daughter.

Anonymous said...

Tim I'm praying for you and your precious daughter. Be well.
You and your daughter are in my thoughts and prayers. luv Jackie

TIM said...

HI EVERYBODY,THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS AND YOUR PRAYERS. I AM SEEKING ADVICE. WHEN I WENT NC ABOUT A WEEK AGO,I DID NOT GIVE AN EXPALNATION TO NMOM,THATS BECAUSE IN THE PAST EVERYTIME I CONFRONT HER SHE DENIES IT AND SAYS MY 7 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER IS TELLING HER THE NEGATIVE FIRST.I AM SO EXHAUSTED WITH THIS SITUATION. THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN IS WHEN MY DAUGHTER TOLD ME THAT NGRANDMA BLAMES HER FOR CAUSING PROBLEMS BY TELLING HER DADDY EVERTHING THAT NGRANDMA SAYS.MY DAUGHTER THEN STARTED CRYING IN MY ARMS AND SIGHED IN RELIEF I BELIEVE WHEN I TOLD HER THAT WE WERE NOT GOING TO SEE NGRANDMA AGAIN. MY QUESTION IS SHOULD I EVEN WASTE MY TIME WRITING NMOM A LETTER EXPLAINING MY DECISION?

Anna Valerious said...

Tim,

Your daughter's tears of relief at your telling her she wouldn't have to see her grandma again speaks volumes. Don't ever break that promise!

As to a letter...I think it would likely be a waste of time and would only allow her to feel like she can argue with your reasons. Walk away. Don't look back.

And my very heartfelt congratulations at gaining freedom for yourself and your dear daughter.

Kathleen said...

I've been running around the internet, hungry for anything I can read about Ns. (That Sam guy seems a bit nasty). I'm stunned at how "textbook" my father-in-law is! Wish I knew then what I know now -- I would have exposed his nastiness instead of being the "bigger person" and biting my tongue.

What hurts, of course, is the smear campaign after the cut off. But what hurts more is now KNOWING that he DELIBERATELY withheld from me what I wanted most, and DELIBERATELY did things I did NOT want him to do -- most of it as my husband was dying. It's the KNOWING CALCULATED PAIN they inflict that disturbs me the most.

Tim, your Nmom says your daughter is repeating the NEGATIVE things first -- tsk tsk on your daughter! She's ADMITTING she says negative things!! To a child! About the child's parent!
If that's not abusive, I don't know what is! And now it's the CHILD'S FAULT for not saying "postiive" things before the negative??? HUH????

Anna is right - keep your innocent child away from that woman. My children are a bit older than yours, and they are glad that I protected them from any more hurt. We always knew that Grandpa and Grandma A. were "different," and it was no fun to be around them.

Childhood is supposed to be fun.

I am SO GRATEFUL for this blog, Anna.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

"...the happiness and success of others galls you and makes you set about destroying it..."

Never in a million years did I ever think that a human being could be capable of doing this. Especially someone that I considered to be a good friend, it's mind blowing really. Kathy was a gifted writer.

Anonymous said...

To Tim: THe only letter you should write is a letter to yourself. I wish I had written more when things were really bad...so I could be sure my memory was correct. For most "normal" people, going nc is NOT EASY. I found (after 10 months) that, in some ways, it is a bit harder now. Memories fade, and I do question my decision (but that's when I go on-line and read Anna's blog and say to myself: "Oh yeah, now you remember why...") See, I think it is so hard for me to accept that my mom is as bad as she is. I am there now.

You sound like a very sensisitve person. I would recommend documenting the abuse so you never are deluded into thinking that things will change...because they won't. Do yourself the favor of providing evidence to yourself.

Good luck. Check back here often...it help me sooo much.

GraFXGrl98 said...

First off, thank you so much to those who reponded to my post earlier this week. Your words of encouragement mean the world to me and now I don't feel so alone. That's really one of the heardest parts of identifing an N in your life isn't it?
Thanks again!

And to Tim:

I think it is a great thing to protect your daughter from her. In my situation, going NC, I did not write a letter. Many times an N will use that to try and prove that YOU are the crazy one or they are the victim. They are very skilled at turning anything their way. Just please be aware of that. I shutter to think how my NM will be allowed to emotionally rip apart my niece & newphew because my family doesn't see what I see.

Anonymous said...

Hi Tim:

I just want to say I too agree with skipping the letter. I personally wasted so much of my life trying to explain things to N's. Nothing ever got through, and if often just gave them what they wanted: more contact and conflict, at the expense of my time and energy. My motto now is to "let them do the math" and let them wonder why I [and no doubt others before and after me] are gone from their life.

Good luck with everything. You sound like you are making the right choices for your daughter.

Anonymous said...

OMG,they love it when you feel the need to explain to them. It means you care.

My N mother thought she was God and all explanations were to be brought before the throne.


My old motto was, please believe me, I'm telling the truth.
My new and improved motto is, "It isn't up for discussion".

SHE HATES MY NEW MOTTO, lol.
Especially since shortly after I declared my new motto, things went South real quick, leading to NC.

Number 281 said...

Anna!!

As always, a great post!!

Hope you are "into it" soon enough to help us create a "gameplan" for dealing with those "holiday visits" with Nparents in the coming weeks ahead!!

Thanks!! #281

Anonymous said...

Tim,

I'm so glad you found this blog and the information that you need to resurrect the N from your life.

Thank God none of us are alone anymore! Please google "Characteristics of a Narcissistic Mother". You will find, not only are we not alone, but we all had the same Momster!! I guess that makes us all relatives. Alas, the family I always wanted.

I'm 43 and it's going on 18 years this Christmas with no contact and no sight of my Malignant N Mother. I never EVER regretted my decision to go no contact but did sometimes doubt it. Having learned all about Malignant Narcissism there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I made the most positive, life affirming move, I could possibly ever do for myself.

Knowledge is power. We've lived it, we've named it "Malignant Narcissism", we survived it, and we're moving beyond it! Out of the darkness and in to the light!

There are better days and better ways ahead!

Air punch and a whahoo!!! To all you brave souls who see the narc for what it is and say no more!! It's as if another Angel gets its wings and the Devil gets de-clawed!

yan said...

I've been reading here for a few weeks, and today I began reading your posts about "Narcissist Appeasers", and what you wrote about your father. I believe that our son is an appeaser to his N wife, and their three daughters are the direct victims of this appeasement. Our son has also lost much contact with his extended family through the years, although there is now an arms-length relationship (on his terms only). I've often wondered how a confident, handsome, talented, Christian young man could fall in love with a woman who hates us so much. We've come to think of even her facial expressions as evil. What so many have written here has happened to us, and we had no way of understanding what in the world was going on. How could it be all our fault? It didn't make sense for many years.

I do worry about our granddaughters. We are wondering what to do about Christmas. Should we drive several hours to try and see them, or should we just stay home and mail their gifts to them. How much should we spend. We've often been in their area at Christmas to visit our other daughter but our son and his family have not been "available" even for a few hours. We never hear from them with a thank you after Christmas.

Our daughter-in-law is extremely verbally abusive and has been ever since we met her, although we are 'no contact' for several years now. It's much easier for all involved. He visits us with his daughters occasionally. But Christmas is coming up, and I'm wondering if we should try and spend some time with the granddaughters, or not. Should we feel guilty if we keep things low-key, not overspend, stay home and just send our love and gifts via mail? Or should we try harder to be a part of their holiday..

From your perspective, Anna..what would you have wanted your grandparents to do...

TIM said...

THANKS ONCE AGAIN FOR EVERYBODYS ADVICE, I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. BASED ON THE OVERWHELMING ADVICE ON NOT TO WRITE A LETTER OF EXPLANATION, I WON'T. ON THE ADVICE OF WRITING A LETTER TO MYSELF,I WILL START TO DOCUMENT SOME OF THE OUTRAGEOUS BRHAVIOR OF MY NMOM. ALSO MY SEVEN YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WROTE ME ON A PIECE OF PAPER THAT HER NGRANDMA TOLD HER TO TITLE A BOOK "NIGHTMARE ON THE ROAD WITH THE -----(WIFE'S MAIDEN LAST NAME).I NOW AFTER READING ABOUT NPEOPLE IS THAT THEY USE DIVIDE AND CONQUER SCHEMES TO GET THEIR WAY AND THATS EXACTLY WHAT MY NMOM HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO WITH MY DAUGHTER. FORTUNAELTY FOR ME MY DAUGHTER WOULD EVENTUALLY REPEAT TO ME ALL OF NGRANDMAS HATRED TOWARDS MY WIFE AND MY WIFE'S PARENTS INCLUDING MYSELF A COUPLE TIMES. I ALSO HAVE ANOTHER PAPER WHERE MY DAUGHTER WROTE THAT NGRANDA ALWAYS BLAMES HER FOR TELLING DADDY EVERYTHING THAT NGRADMA SAYS.

I ALSO HAVE COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT AT TIMES IN MY LIFE I HAVE HAD SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF NPEOPLE. I AM GOING TO SEE A THERAPIST TO HELP ME UNDERSTAND AND CHANGE SOME OF MY BEHAVIOR THAT I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE AND THAT I BELIEVE HAS BEEN PASSED ON TO ME BY MY NMOM. I NEED ALOT OF HEALING AND I HOPE MY THERAPIST CAN HELP ME UNWIND THE BS THAT I HAVE AQUIRED.

I HAVE CHANGED MY HOME PHONE # AND ADVISED MY DAUGHTER TO NO LONGER CALL NGRANDMA. I AM ALSO SCREENING MY CELL PHONE CALLS, BUT I AM JUST WAITING FOR THE TSUNAMI TO COME IN WHEN MY NMOM CALLS ME AT WORK. I AM ALREADY PREPARING WHAT I WILL SAY TO HER, WHICH IS THAT I MADE IT VERY CLEAR LAST TIME THAT IF I KEPT HEARING YOUR NEGATIVE THOUGHTS THRU MY DAUGHTERS MOUTH THAT I WOULD NO LONGER BE APART OF YOUR LIFE.

ANY ADVICE ON WHAT YOU WOULD SAY WHEN THAT PHONE CALL COMES IN?

I DO NOT HAVE ANY WAY TO SCREEN MY WORK PHONE CALLS.

AGAIN THANK YOU FOR YOUR ADVICE, THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tim:
On the phone deal @ work I would simply keep repeating, "hello?", "hello?", and when she starts talking continue to make like there is no one on the other end. if it's a case where a switchboard takes the call and forwards it directly to your line she may call them after several tries and ask what is wrong with your line. just simply tell the switchboard if they call you "nothing is wrong with my line." you won't be lying, but when they try to put her through to you, simply repeat the same procedure. this will drive her nuts when she contacts the front again. after the switchboard is contacted and they know there is nothing wrong with your phone, if you have a hold button just put her on hold. if no hold button, then simply lay your phone down and voila! instant relief. if there is no switchboard then you've got it even better because you can drive her crazy the first 2-3 times she calls with the hello, hello thing. then proceed to the phone hold or lay down method. if you feel you must talk at all, just say, "uh huh" "mmm hmmm" , at crazy times that make no sense and watch what it'll do. then when she gets irate just say, "oh, were you saying something? I missed that." then repeat the above steps until she hangs up on you. Sorry this is so long but I just feel a mean streak tonight! Seriously, try these steps or develop your own. There is a way to work it. Study her to see what works. You'll find a chink in her armour somewhere.

krl said...

Hello, All.

I've been reading all of your comments....and I feel utterly ill thinking of those of you who still have....or have to have contact with your Ns. Ugh. I couldn't do it.

Many of Anna's previous posts have to do with this very thing. The 'how to-s'....if you HAVE to have any contact. No words of mine could possible serve as any 'encouragement'. Going NC is a painful process sometimes......at least getting to the point that you KNOW in your deepest being that NOTHING will change them....that you can NOT 'work with the situation'. I fear it WILL BE arduous and frazzle-ing. If you have children involved....and have to have contact with the Nparent...there simply isn't much choice in the matter and you'll learn to 'streamline' the process as best as you can. Keep reading ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that will arm you with what you need to know and need to be...(or NOT be).

Try to keep in mind that you are NOT dealing with a normal 'difficult' personality. This isn't about personality. This is about EVIL. Once you grasp the nature of this 'entity', many of your choices and decisions will be more 'natural'. If you opened the door, and a monster was standing there....you would slam it quick. If a pervert called you on the phone, you would hang up. If your child was being molested, you would snatch them out of reach. If your neighbor was harrassing you....talking shit about you....calling you names....stealing from you....you would NEVER talk to them again, possibly get a restraining order etc. What seems like the 'natural' thing to do in these scenarios, applies equally to the kind of contact we have had with either parents, or siblings, or other family members. Just because it is 'family', does not give them sanction from our horror or disgust or anger or to take action against. THEY RELY ON YOU ALLOWING THEM TO HIDE INSIDE THE FAMILY. Once I no longer considered them 'family', they can't pull that shit on me anymore. I don't speak to or entertain evil assholes. I don't send them BD cards. I don't buy them holiday gifts. I don't OWE them ANYTHING. Period. And I don't WANT anything from them either. (Gifts from Ns were always ChocolateCoveredTurds anyway.)

Go back.....read and re-read Anna's previous blogs....There's miles and miles of good stuff from Anna and in the comments. Keep reading and relating to them. It takes some time.....but it is so well worth it.

Again, to all of you who CANNOT go NC because of children....my whole heart goes out to you. This sounds like one of the toughest things to possibly have to endure...and to suffer because of the kids. Pray for your children's protection....and pray for wisdom each day....with each encounter you have to have. I like to think that God gives Special Grace and Protection in these instances. I don't know.

Ok...keep on keeping on. krl

Anonymous said...

Tim,

Simple easy to remember advice when speaking to an N or any other controlling person: Don't JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain). Best of luck to you and your daughter.

Marie

Anonymous said...

I was reluctantly listening to a sermon today about honoring your mother and father. I say reluctantly because I had a feeling to were he was going with this. It gets me so angry that a pastor thinks that if "you would just show love" to these type of people, then they can see how you as a person has changed then they will see Jesus in you(usually it`s something that they`ve delt with in their own families). My n parents and family eat this up and think that I`m not honoring them. How is it honoring to that person to allow them to treat you with evil intent, time and time again. This is one of the reasons that I don`t go to church right now. Then you get looked down upon because of the choice of nc. I`m sick of that crap!

Anonymous said...

Marie,
Your advice to Tim:
Don't JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain)
is fantastic! I will be using this when I see my toxic sister in a week.
Thank you.

Anonymous said...

When the N calls my cell phone, it comes up as "The Narcissist", which gives me a knee-jerk reaction to be "ON GUARD".

Anonymous said...

Please continue going to Church. That is to honor God.

Even the devil can quote scripture to suit his own needs. I'm sure the priest/reverend is referring to a NORMAL person who is truly sorry, who needs forgiveness.
A MN (Malignant Narcissist)isn't sorry, so how can they expect forgiveness? They did nothing wrong?

Also, we need to realize that some people haven't experienced what most of you have. (My MN was a sweetheart compared to a lot of yours)Unless a person has a long-term relationship (parents, spouse, children, or other close family member)with a MN, they truly cannot understand what it involves.

DO NOT let them get you in a conversation with them, using God, to allow them to torture you and yours.

Ask them one question out of the blue...blindside them (when they are a good mood)"Would you want to be around someone who hurts you?"
Then say,"HA,that's why I'm cutting you out of my life."
No more needs to be said or explained...get the hell out of there or hang up on them.

I wonder, since WE are all so bad according to our MN, why do they want to be around us?

Someone needs to ask one of their MNs and let us know!!!

God bless and hang in there and leave the MN trash out of your life.

Veraci Nullatenus said...

You are right on the mark.

It's sad, that narcs use religion to hide behind. The narc in my life is a well known "Christian" book writer and counselor. He treated his 1st wife as a servant and "gas lighted" his family and friends. Right now he is getting his though. His new wife is verbally and physically abusive to him. Cussing,spitting and hitting him. Justice will prevail!