Saturday, November 29, 2008

Disdain for Reality

The NPD illusion of superiority is a facet of a generalized disdain for reality. These individuals feel unconstrained by rules, customs, limits, and discipline. Their world is filled with self-fiction in which conflicts are dismissed, failures redeemed, and self-pride is effortlessly maintained. They easily devise plausible reasons to justify self-centered and inconsiderate behavior. Their memories of past relationships are often illusory and changing. If rationalizations and self-deception fail, individuals with NPD are vulnerable to dejection, shame, and a sense of emptiness. Then they have little recourse other than fantasy. They have an uninhibited imagination and engage in self-glorifying fantasies. What is unmanageable through fantasy is repressed and kept from awareness. As they consistently devalue others, they do not question the correctness of their own beliefs; they assume that others are wrong. The characteristic difficulties of individuals with NPD almost all stem from their lack of solid contact with reality. If the false image of self becomes substantive enough, their thinking will become peculiar and deviant. Then their defensive maneuvers become increasingly transparent to others (Millon & Davis, 1996, pp. 405-423). Sharon C. Ekleberry, Dual Diagnosis and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

This is a packed paragraph. Read it through several times to absorb it. The sentence that sums it all up well is, "The characteristic difficulties of individuals with NPD almost all stem from their lack of solid contact with reality." Remember that the word reality is interchangeable with the word truth. Notice how in the description above of the narcissist's 'disdain for reality' what follows is a description of all the ways than narcissists avoid the truth. The truth about the world, about themselves, about their past, about you. This professional person managed to find all the ways to describe the narcissist's love affair with lies without ever actually using the word 'lie'. But lies they are, nonetheless.

They are "people of the lie" as Scott M. Peck so aptly describes them. The narcissist fabricates at every juncture to the point that the narcissist himself becomes a lie. They don't just tell lies...they are, at their most basic, a lie in and of themselves.

The narcissist disarms you by causing you to buy into the lie(s). The more you accede to their version of reality (which is lie-based) the less you are able to resist their control, their abuse, their sucking the life blood from you.

If believing their lies is how the narcissist disarms you then, obviously, re-arming means learning what truth is. There are truths that are universal and immutable. Moral truths fall into this category of universal and objective truth. No matter who you are, no matter what country or culture you live in, no matter what sex, creed or religion you belong to there are certain things that are wrong to do to others. Those who deny there is a universal and objective morality are capable of the basest of crimes against humanity. Be they a cruel dictator like Mao Tse Tung or a serial killer like Ted Bundy or a malignant narcissist in your family, church or workplace.

And, yes, I think the malignant narcissist belongs in the same list with Mao and Bundy. They shouldn't be taken off the list simply because they lack the power (Mao) or the motivation (Bundy) to murder in order to slake their lusts. The root of malignant narcissism infects them all so they should all stand in the same Hall of Shame. If the malignant narcissist you know had the lack of accountability that a dictator has or had lost her fear of the law then you know what they would be capable of. Murder and torture would be standard fare for those under their power. I'm not engaging in hyperbole. I'm being a realist. I recognize cause and effect. I acknowledge the little tyrant and murderer that lives in the heart of every malignant narcissist. Only the constraints of their circumstances and their fear of the law have power to restrain them. When you can believe this to be true then you will never want anything to do with them ever again. The malignant narcissist is dangerous. Period.

All malignant narcissists deny there is a moral law that stands outside themselves and judges them. They just pretend away this reality. This means they are free to make up morality as they go which is exactly what they do. This results in a moral code which has all the human resources of kindness, attention, valuation, and regard going towards them and away from you. They turn you into a big, fat Zero. They turn themselves into gods. Because you are nothing you deserve nothing. Because they are god they deserve it all. They work diligently to make you believe the lie that they deserve it all. If they succeed they're in Fat City and you will be lucky to stay out of the asylum or an early grave.

Salvation from the affliction and torment of narcissists depends on whether or not you love truth-- whether you are dedicated to reality even if reality is ugly. The narcissist "loves and practices lies". (See Revelation 22:14-15) His doom is sure. The question is, do you love the truth enough to embrace truth when the truth hurts? That is the true test of anyones love for truth. It is the test the narcissist has failed time and again. Keep in mind that he doesn't hate all truth. He only hates the truths which are inconvenient to him at any particular moment. The test of your character, the test that tries whether or not you really do love truth is when truth threatens to slice through your dreams and fantasies about life, about yourself, about what you've done and who you are. These are the very truths the narcissist is always working to escape from.

The test for love of the truth isn't whether or not you are willing to believe ugly truths about others. That comes easy for all of us. No, the test is whether or not you are willing to face truth when it comes knocking at your door to talk about who you are and what you've done. The more honest you're willing to be with yourself about who you are and what you've done then the more likely you are to believe the truth when it tells you that someone else is good...or bad. Your lens that you look through is less skewed. When you can be honest about who you are then you are much more likely to be honest about who someone else is.

Occasionally people wonder aloud in the comments about themselves...are they, too, a narcissist? The test is above. Do you love the truth even when the truth tells you something other than what you want to hear?? You know the answer to that question. No one here can answer that question for you. You don't need anyone else to answer that question because you know the answer. The degree to which any of us will deny, obscure or push away truth is the degree to which you are narcissistic. Narcissism is a continuum. Where you fall on that line is easily measured by how much you love the truth or, conversely, how much you have "disdain for reality".

"The characteristic difficulties of individuals with NPD almost all stem from their lack of solid contact with reality."

Anna's paraphrase: The very things that make dealing with malignant narcissists so difficult can be traced back to their constant state of living in lies. Their disregard for truth affects everything and everyone around them.

Love for the truth or love of lies. These two concepts sift all of humanity.

72 comments:

Sunset said...

This is EXACTLY what's so hard to explain to people about my mother. I am constantly asked whether if I explained things better she would come around. My explanations have nothing to do with it. She simply won't hear them. My favorite was concerning a particular concern of hers regarding my physical appearance. She had been trying to force me to change it for years; I had always strongly resisted. Then one day she gets me a product for that very issue and is hurt that I don't want it - she had NO IDEA that I didn't want it! This was followed with threatening me for wasting her money!

There is no way of reasoning with her. She will only twist everything around to fit her reality - because, after all, I don't know how to communicate clearly and she has to dig to find out what I "really mean."

Anonymous said...

Good stuff Anna. My sibling told me what I was and was not in a very nasty e mail while covering in the guise of "I'm a terrible person" but at least I know what I am" type conversation. The sib turns on a dime as to whether you are wonderful or horrendus depending on whether you defy their thinking on subjects. I personally know of lies that have been told. Lies that I can both prove and those that have affected other people that were not aware of the poison that spews from the sib until it was too late. The sib has left a trail of misery I'm willing to bet that stretches over several states, but they always smooth everything over and always have an answer for things. The last several days have been such where I've had to force myself to find things to do in order to escape thoughts that are hammering at my mind over the last couple e-mails I received. A lot of evidence is only by those hurt by the lies and deceitfulness through the sib, and yet they teach a Sunday School class (unless that's another lie) and have a huge interest in the Bible. Will argue a period or comma if need be. Yes, that ridiculous. I figure the sib is thinking of me since I refuse any further contact other than absolutely necessary within my situation. My thoughts tend to run along those that are thinking about me. I've done it for years. Family, friends, even thinking about jobs has brought me calls that let me know I was on the mark at the time. I figure it's intuition. There is such a part of me that wants to tell them exactly what I think about them and yet I know this would only serve to feed them their ego feast. I happen to know some of my sibs weaknesses due to suspecting awhile back the person that they were. I began to listen and read very carefully to words both spoken and written. I'm a slow learner, but when I learn I try and take the learning very very much to mind and heart so as to recognize it in the future. The sib made a mistake in telling me some things that I now use to my benefit such as once they have disdain for someone it bothers them even to the point of watching the disdained to eat. On the other hand, I may have done them a service by not having contact because now the lies they tell their own spouse will be less likely to be discovered. I've never breathed a word to the spouse because I don't have a relationship with them.I figure it was a smarter/safer thing to do. Which reminds me...years ago I received a letter from the spouse and nestled among it were the words that they would never hurt my sib. I remember thinking why would they write that?? It didn't take too much longer for my brain to mature finally and think, Yes...yes, now it makes sense. My sib was feeding the spouse bits and pieces of info in order to poison and numb their mind into thinking that I somehow didn't trust them (the spouse). The thing is, both my husband and myself have since talked about it and said the spouse is the one that we had considered getting hurt. Not my sib. My inlaw either has a nature kin to my sib or else my sib has the wool pulled over the spouse to the point that they feel sib is wonderful. Someday, even if I never know about it that will most likely prove to be error. Will it be too late for the spouse? I certainly have no idea. My sib has even claimed the spouse's family (kids, grandkids) for their own. Never mentions that they are step. I know that may not be a big point, but most folks I've ever known have been upfront about it. The things I've seen in writing from the sib have people believing that the current spouse and their family is one from original stock so to speak. To me it's just another lie piled on top of the others.
Sorry for the long post. You opened a can of worms for me on your article!

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"The sib turns on a dime as to whether you are wonderful or horrendus depending on whether you defy their thinking on subjects."

People like this are very easy to manipulate if you know how. Kiss their butts, then either stab them in the back or run. Either way, most Ns don't realize they've been had "until too late".

Anonymous said...

This is so true: "The narcissist disarms you by causing you to buy into the lie(s)."

If we buy into the lies, it validates what they think about themselves. If they think it, and can get you to buy into it, well then it is just true in their minds!!! No, it doesn't matter if you buy in or not, they believe whatever they want. But wait, if you finally stand up to them and don't buy in, then there is something wrong with you. They twist it and turn it so much, that you start doubting your own sanity. This has happened to me so many times it's ridiculous.

I say "enough already" and I am finally standing up for me and what I believe...the real truth and let them live in their fantasy of what they think the truth is...let them find someone else to believe their lies.

Great reading Anna...thank you.

Meg said...

I confronted a narcsissist the other day in front of her boss. She used every trick in the N book.

Her reality was one of complete innocence and blithe ignorance. Or at least that's how it looked. She...'couldn't remember' having done what I accused her of, she didn't believe she was capable of such a thing anyway, IF she had done such a thing THEN that was terrible and she was sorry, she couldn't believe that I had carried this offense around for so long, I was over-reacting, etc...

At the end of this cross-examination during which she remained looking like Bo-peep (calm voice, passive expression, no body language), she finally sat and gave me the death-stare, which only I could see, because I was sitting across the table from her.

I had refused to accept her reality, seen through every attempt to manipulate the audience, refuted it and stuck to the original story and she had run out of ways to convince me, and everyone else at the table, of it. Her only weapon left was silent aggression.

This same woman had tried to lure me a week prior to this meeting, by wanting to have a coffee with me because she wanted to be friends with me and get to know me.

I told her she would have to excuse me because I didn't want to be friends with somebody who had treated me with such rudeness and disdain.

Once their false image becomes punctured, especially if there are witnesses, there really is nothing left but the genuine reality of 'I hate your guts'. It's actually quite scary, at the same time kind of hilarious (if you know what is happening). It's like confronting a six-year-old who can't get away with being cute anymore.

Anonymous said...

Hi swIiah:
I didn't run or kiss butt and
I think this is what brought out the wrath. I called it like I saw it and the sib went ballistic in words. Previously there was an e-mail singing my praises because at that time I was still *worthy* of it while the sib skipped merrily along with their own life at their own pace(like they've done for our entire adult lives). Still are, except now I'm the object of scorn because I dared to defy the golden one in their quest for knowledge. I really didn't; just sent them to the source they should've been talking to in the first place. Of course after that I'm REALLY the scorned object because sib and mom are on the same wavelength when it comes to things in life always being everyone else's fault but theirs. My wish is really to get ole sib in a situation where I could call down the thunder and show things that they could not deny to the spouse. But, I still know in my sane moments that it comes down to this - people believe what they WANT to believe even with the evidence staring them in the face. There is only one other situation that I may encounter the sib to my knowledge and should that occur I have a feeling that even though I've been threatened previously, it won't happen unless the circumstances are *just right* for the sib. Otherwise, the sib will be the coward they have shown themselves to be down through the years. Instead of getting into an all out word war via e-mail, I simply said enough. I still think it's killing golden one. I used very few words and struck for the heart of where they fancy themselves. From the last e-mail with the threat I'd say I at least hit a nerve. GO ME! (is that too narcissistic???) LOL! And thanks for the comment What's.I'll remember the tactic for other n's (and sib)!

Billie said...

Amen, Meg! The other evening, I had a phone conversation with my father, who attempted to shame me by telling me I should have warned him about his giving money to a certain "friend" of his, who now is not speaking to my father. I really had wished this had happened in front of an audience, for a couple of years ago, I had told him (twice!!) exactly what I thought of his money-loving friend, and he told me I was crazy. But, now that the freeloader has what they want from him, they've dumped him (not unlike something my dad would have done), and it's MY fault for not warning him about it. I called him on his b.s. and informed him I did indeed give him heads up. Before he could negate that statement, I interjected that whether or not he "remembers" it, that's exactly what happened, then ended the call.

I'm a little disgusted with myself for letting him work me up, because I did get upset, but I'm better now, and reading this blog always gives me some perspective.

Kathleen said...

I have a question about the word "predatory" (as used in this blog and others) as opposed to the word "opportunistic."
If an N has a chance to grab attention, I can comprehend that.
But will an N MAKE an opportunit or actually go out of his or her way to exploit someone else's situation and thereby create an opportunity to steal another's thunder, limelight, attention?

I guess what I'm trying to come to grips with is this -- there were times my NFIL and (possibly N)MIL and NSIL defintely stole attention, created inconviences, and made demands, ignored the word "no." But all those situations were not earth-shattering and I could bite my lip.
What I'm trying to comprehend is the horrendous behavior during my DH's illness. Would an N really exploit such a thing and make demands DELIBERATELY??? KNOWINGLY??

This has been a very painful journey for me (and, as I read, for others), but for me it's different because I didn't grow up with it. I WANT to believe they are merely self-absorbed and clueless trash. But they really mean no harm, wouldn't hurt me or my children on purpose.

Do Ns deliberately stalk or lie in wait or seize any chance to make things about themselves, even knowingly ignoring how much pain they are causing?
That's a very hard concept for me to even allow into my brain. Is that what is meant by "predatory"?

- Kathleen

Sibling Survivor said...

Kathleen,

I would say they are predatory. The prime example I use when I need to explain the "character" of my sister to anyone is an example of seeking out an opportunity to feed off someone and that her rage is all a manipulation. I'll repeat it here, because if a N-daughter can do this to her chronically ill father I doubt your N relatives will keep to the high rode and leave your children alone. They like the defenseless and the easily hurt, it makes them feel more powerful.

The background for the incident: money was *always* tight in my family. Dad was a construction worker who couldn't work anymore due to severe heart problems. Mom started out as a secretary and worked her way up slowly without a degree. She had a rough fight with cancer and won. We were around 8 when all the above happened. Between the bills and raising four children, my parents had little choice but to live pay check to pay check. Things were always stressful in the family.

Thus, at the start of the story, N-sister KNEW in undeniable terms that there was no free money for non-necessities. That's how we had lived our entire lives. In fact, she was the only one of us children allowed to work because she demanded free money to spend on designer clothing; they thought it'd teach her the value of money if she had to work for it. (They refused to let the rest of us work while in high school because they wanted us to get scholarships to go to college.)

One evening she strolls into the room and demands money to eat out with her friends from my dad. (No mom home to stick up for him.) He reminded her he didn't have money - just twenty dollars to last for groceries until the end of the week- and when he got his disability check that week he needed to buy his medication.

Now, he was known to have avoided buying some of his medicine so we could pay some other bills or buy groceries. It upset the ever-loving bejeezus out of the rest of us - his health was worth more than any bill or groceries. She knew this history - that if he gave her money he probably would avoid buying some of his medicine to compensate. She didn't care, and launched into her attacks of him.

She began with the "I have to pay for everything" (reality: only her non-necessary expenses). She continued through "I'm the ONLY one on this family that works" (mom doesn't count?) into "The rest of you are lazy and get everything handed to you, I have to work for everything." When that didn't work, she began getting really nasty. She started with "you (dad) choose to not work" (huh? 1/3 normal heart performance... he's got a choice?) followed with how the rest of us must just want to live off welfare (dad went back after the first heart attack despite doctors orders - to try and support us). She taunted him with his poor health, as if he had a choice of having a heart deformation.

She raged at him for quite a long time, I'd say it felt like half an hour. He got progressively more stressed, turning red in the face. She knew what buttons to press to make him feel like a bad father. It was heart breaking to watch, but I knew from experience if I said anything he'd lash out in anger at me for "fighting with your sister." I was ready to take the heat anyway just to get her to leave him alone.

I swear this time I honestly thought she was going to give him a heart attack. She KNEW full well of his condition, KNEW he didn't have money to give her, and KNEW how to make him as upset as possible. She WANTED him to give her the money for his medicine and for him to go without.

Before I could snap at her, the phone range - it was one of her friends. She flips immediately from full blown rage mode to "happy sweet don't-you-just-adore-me" mode. She chit chat with this friend - who apparently asked what she was doing. She said "Oh, nothing much, just the usual." Then as soon as she put down the phone she went right back at it with dad - as if nothing had happened in the mean time.

That, ladies and gentlemen, was the 'crystal clear' moment where I realized she wasn't ever going to change. This wasn't some confused/hurt/growing child. It was, as Anna has posted before, the straw that broke the camel's back. This was, in some quality, exactly like every day of my life before. Back to when we were children. She hadn't grown or changed an iota since then. She didn't WANT to, she was acting this way on purpose. That rage was fake, and I have to assume all the ones before were too. It was all a manipulation and control technique.

Oh, and she left to go eat out with her friends. She had the money to do it, but she just didn't want to spend her money. She came back home and chose to act as if it never happened. She even bragged about having eaten out.

And she wonders why I wouldn't do the "happy sisters" photo at my college graduation.

Anna Valerious said...

Dictionary definition of predatory: "Living by preying on other organisms" and "Living by or given to exploiting or destroying others for one's own gain."

Opportunistic: "Taking immediate advantage, often unethically, of any circumstance of possible benefit."

Both definitions apply to malignant narcissists. But the word 'predatory' is used by me and others because it better captures what is going on between narcissist and their targets. They lay in wait. They seek the easiest target. When they pounce they rip and tear and shred their unsuspecting prey. All of this behavior betrays their intentions which are evil through and through. They are not merely self-absorbed and clueless. The story "Sibling Survivor" shared with you is a good example of the evil intent that motivates them. The pure evil intentionality of their attacks. Believe they are less than predatory in every sense of the word at your own risk. Those of us who have lived up close and personal with these people are sharing some very important intel with you and anyone willing to listen. That malignant narcissists stalk their prey and will devour them the moment the coast is clear. The longer a person believes they are merely "self-absorbed and clueless" the more likely it is that you'll get bitten again.

I know of a narcissist who had gotten off the hook for her bad behavior for decades because her family members always defaulted to the thought that this person was simply clueless. Like a child. And, like children, somehow less culpable for what she said and did. So she was given a pass over and over again because it was assumed she just didn't understand the effects of her words and behaviors on others. Needless to say, this narcissist made a very good "living" off the life blood of her family for a very long time.

Believe that they don't understand or don't mean to hurt and destroy others to your everlasting peril. Predators. It is the one word that captures the dangers, both potential and realized, of dealing with these people. Don't let your mind minimize any of meaning of that word. Every definition and every nuance of that word applies to the malignant narcissist.

Kathleen said...

Sibling Survivor,
Thank you for your response. Your sister is sub-human. It's outrageous that anyone could behave like that -- but I now know there are people who really are that selfish. How disgusting.

That's what's been the hardest part for me to realize. If a behavior is so appalling, could it be true?? MAYBE my Inlaws were so overcome with grief they COULDN'T see past it. This is what I've told myself. But reading what your sister did is burning a hole in my brain -- yes, it is true. People are THAT selfish.
Yes, they ARE predatory. Got to get that imbedded into my gray matter.
When DH was diagnosed, they JUMPED at the opportunity to make demands! They were told to wait or stay at a hotel -- but they came and pushed the kids out of their beds (yes, and we allowed it). But they had to travel hundreds of miles to do it -- but that did't seem to bother them at all! They used my DH's illness to garner sympathy for THEMSELVES.
They bossed around my children. They took all the food in the house. They used my pool! My SIL brought wine and was drinking by 11 a.m. every day. I waited on them hand and foot, telling myself they were grieving. My DH wasn't as fooled -- he was annoyed with them (but we didn't know about NPD).
People actually traveled 13 hours by car JUST TO CAPITALIZE on his cancer! And they are outraged that I have cut them off -- I am so unfeeling, unsympathetic (after all, they only have 3 grandchildren, two of whom are my children). Poor things lost their son, their oldest child, and I'm the bitch who told them to get lost.

I also just read The Last Straw and was relieved to find out I'm not as petty as I was beginning to believe. The Last Straw was such a small thing in comparison to everything else.
Our first Christmas was 5 months after DH passed away. My children (13 and 18 at the time) received from his parents very generic HO HO HO type cards. On the top was their name with no "Dear' first, and signed Grandma and Papa (I hate that title) with no "Love" first. No personal note (they had lost their dad!). ThAT DID IT. I just got this "gut feeling" the omissions of "dear" and "love" was deliberate. Hurt me, well, I'll deal. Purposely hurt MY children who just lost their dad? Go screw yourself.

Again, thank you. I'm so sorry your dad had to tolerate that bullshit. In the words that Anna wrote on one of her posts, I hope all these Ns "eat shit and die."

- Kathleen

Kathleen said...

Thank you, Anna. It's getting through. It's mind-boggling. People will actually lie in wait for an opportunity to HURT someone else -- and when it's family it truly is mind-boggling.
Actually you're right -- evil is a better word.
- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

"And she wonders why I wouldn't do the "happy sisters" photo at my college graduation."

Or won't speak to her or won't have anything to do with her. I bet that she's the first to cry victim when someone flattens her or proves to be less than easy prey. I bet she wouldn't have dared gone after her father had he not been sick. Oh, and no mom to stick up for him. Convenient. Hindsight's always 20/20, but a 911 call might have helped(at the very least, it would have shut her up for awhile)? Or a tape recorder for every time she went off. (An SA forumite used a voice activated tape recorder to get her abuser thrown in jail). At the very least, it could used as a reminder as to why you have nothing to do with her.

TIM said...

NMOM COMMUNITY PLEASE HELP. I WENT NO CONTACT FROM NMOM 3 WEEKS AGO. TODAY MY WIFE CALLED NMOM TO ASK FOR SOME OF MY DAUGHTER'S PROPERTY BACK. MY WIFE SAID NMOM GOT HYSTERICAL SAYING THAT"SHE WANTS HER SON BACK". OMG I AM 35 YEARS OLD. BECAUSE OF THIS HAPPENING TODAY, I SENT EITHER NDAD OR ENABLER AN EMAIL TO "MAKE MYSELF CLEAR". BUT NOW I'M WONDERING IF I SHOULD HAVE SENT IT AT ALL. ANYWAY HERE IT IS. BY THE WAY MOLLY IS MY SEVEN YEAR OLD DAUGHTER-------------------------------
SINCE YOU HUNG UP THE PHONE AND TOLD ME TO HAVE A NICE LIFE, I NEED TO WRITE THIS AND MAKE MYSELF CLEAR.

I AM GOING TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR. I HAVE DECIDED THAT I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. I DON'T WANT NMOM CALLING ME OR ANYWHERE AROUND ME.

I HAVE TOLD NMOM TOO MANY TIMES, TO STOP TELLING OR SAYING THINGS AROUND MOLLY WHERE SHE IS TALKING SHIT ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE RELATED TO MOLLY.

WHEN MOLLY STARTS CRYING TO ME THAT SHE GETS BLAMED AND SCOLDED BY NMOM FOR REPEATING THINGS TO HER DADDY, THATS WHEN I STEP IN AND IT'S MY JOB TO PROTECT MY DAUGHTER.

I WARNED HER, ASKED HER AND BEGGED HER TO STOP SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT OTHERS IN FRONT OF MOLLY. SHE DIDN'T LISTEN TO ME, SO THAT'S IT. NMOM IS BEING CUT OFF FROM ME AND MY FAMILY.

LET ME REPEAT, I DON'T WANT TO SEE HER ANYWHERE AROUND ME. NMOM IS NOT INVITED TO MOLLY'S SCHOOL EITHER. JUST TELL HER THAT I APPRECIATE HER AND YOU FOR RAISING ME, BUT NOW I CHOOSE NOT TO LIVE LIKE THIS ANYMORE. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE.

SYLVIA CALLED TODAY TO ASK FOR MOLLY'S DVD'S THAT WE BOUGHT HER. PLEASE SEND THEM IN THE MAIL.

YOU KNOW WHAT NMOM HAS DONE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE HEARD HER TALK SHIT ABOUT OTHERS. SHE HAS DONE THIS IN FRONT OF YOU, WHEN MOLLY WAS AT YOUR HOUSE AND SHE HAS TALKED SHIT ABOUT OTHERS HER WHOLE LIFE.

WHEN YOU WAKE UP TO NMOM'S EVIL WAYS, MAYBE YOU CAN CALL ME ONE DAY AND WE CAN HAVE A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP.

THANK YOU, FROM TIM

TIM said...

I AM STRUGGLING WITH THIS RIGHT NOW. WHY DOES IT FEEL LIKE I AM TRYING TO RID A DEMON FROM MY BODY OR TRYING TO TAKE GUM OFF MY SHOE. BREAKING FREE FROM AN N-RELATIONSHIP IS THE MOST DIFFICULT THING I HAVE EVER DONE.

I WENT TO SEE MY THERAPIST LAST WEEK ABOUT THIS SITUATION AND SHE SAID THAT ONCE, I AM ABLE TO ALIGN MY INTELLECT WITH MY EMOTIONS THAT'S WHEN I WILL KNOW THAT I HAVE BEEN CURED OF NDISEASE. SHE ALSO SAID THAT IT WAS NORMAL TO HAVE FEELINGS OF BEING A BAD SON,ETC. MY THRAPIST ALSO SAID THAT VICTIMS OF NPEOPLE HAVE BEEN MIND *UCKED. THAT WAS INTERESTING TO HEAR HER SAY THAT.

I HOPE THAT I AM STRONG ENOUGH TO GO THRU WITH THIS NARCISSIST EXORCISM. I AM ALSO SCARED BECAUSE NDAD OR ENABLER POINTED A GUN ABOUT 5 FEET FROM MY HEAD WHEN I WAS 21 YEARS OLD, BECAUSE I WAS ARGUING WITH NMOM. SO IN THE BACK OF MY MIND, I'M A LITTLE SCARED ABOUT HOW THEY ARE GOING TO HANDLE THIS CUT OFF. WHY IS THIS SO HARD?

Anonymous said...

Thanks for a great post Anna. I am printing out that definition. They are not unable to face the truth, no - they are too cowardly to face the truth. And choose to harm the very closest people to them in order to try and skate through life as cowards at other's - often children's - expense.

As for the predation, YES! It was so hard for me to realize, as it is one of the many things they work so hard to hide from us. The N's are always " just in the neighborhood", or calling "just to say hello", or fake-casually mentioning this or that, or pretending something "just popped into their head" or whatever, or that their insults are "advice" etc. They don't have the guts to play it straight. I was shocked the first time I realized that a N incident was actually premeditated, instead of what it initially seemed: something that just ended up playing out a certain awful way. I then suddenly realized that all sorts of past incidents that I had thought just 'happened' were also premeditated, since I could now suddenly see the pattern. It is just about the creepiest realization I ever had.

Tim: That sounded like a good email to me. If they act like they don't get it in the future I'd say you could feel free now to just say nothing, since you can rest assured that you have spelled things out very clearly. About the stuff you want back, if it is not too much you might want to cut your losses and walk away from that too. Yes it is totally unfair. Yes it is not theirs to keep. But if it is replaceable, it may be best to let it go and concentrate on other things. This is also time to watch out for the "decoy" act: the N suddenly pretends to be sorry, to lure you back. N's often fake remorse when they realize someone's escape velocity is seriously building.

You have a great attitude: "THATS WHEN I STEP IN AND IT'S MY JOB TO PROTECT MY DAUGHTER"

NowAware said...

Tim,
I just read your post and am writing to say: "GO, man, Go!" I applaud you for taking the steps to protect your daughter! Let me tell you what a wonderful thing you have done. See, I grew up with an Ngrandma that spoke shit about my Mom, about my Dad, about her other daughter (my Aunt), and I BELIEVED it. It is called brainwashing and it occurred because nobody had the guts to stand up or speak up and do what was right. Also, people like these Ns are very tricky about how the brainwashing takes place. It takes place over long periods of time, suttle things uttered, stories told (stories that suck a child in, because they are juicy!), and all of that. Let me tell you how FAR an Ngrandma like this can go. Tim, would you believe that my Ngrandma had her oldest grandson (who is now in his 40s, by the way), thinking that he may have been the reason for a shotgun wedding? Which was in no case true? But Ngrandma had my brother wondering if our Mother was pregnant in advance of her wedding day! Which again, this was NOT true. But, anyway, we were told things like our parents not really caring about us, and our stepparents not caring about us, and how THEY (the grandparents) did EVERYTHING for us, and even to the extent of telling people that THEY (the grandparents) RAISED us. Yes, my Ngrandma even went so far as to tell the neighbors that they had CUSTODY of us. To further make her own daughter look unfit. Can you believe that shit? It wasn't true, Tim. So, Tim, you did a wonderful thing to step in like an honorable man, a watchful parent - to protect your daughter. Good thing that your daughter has an open, communicative relationship with you to tell you these things. I could tell many, many more things about my Ngrandma, but I only wanted to pipe in here for the moment to tell you "good for you". Don't falter. You absolutely, 100%, did the RIGHT thing. I'm giving you a high-five over the internet right now.
Stay strong, and all the best to you and your wife and daughter.

Stormchild said...

Hi Anna

Great posts - as always; thought provoking, as always.

Reading the last few topics has brought to mind an issue I'd like to have your 'take' on, if/when the spirit moves you:

the deliberate and harmful misuse of 'humor' by Ns/abusers - by bullies in general.

... to hurt and isolate and ridicule their targets, to play up to their 'audience' at the targets' expense, etc. etc. - all under the pretense of 'fun'.

Many of the folks who comment here have been on the receiving end of that kind of meanness, and my own experience tells me it gets particularly acute during the 'holidays'. Having escaped both an Nmom and an Nsister, you have probably experienced some pretty ghastly forms of this, as well.

I am sure you would have very worthwhile things to say about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts - again, if and as the spirit moves you.

All the best,

Storm.

Sibling Survivor said...

Kathleen,

The wanting to believe the best in people is natural. I think the world would be too dark a place if we didn't. That's why my sister had the free reign she did - mom and dad wanted to believe she just hadn't grown up yet. I wanted to believe it too. It isn't easy to admit that there are some people out there who aren't good at heart.

Anon 9:40 AM,

Sounds like you've met my sister, or one of the same line of N-clone. She likes to play victim in the role of the unrecognized genius the world is set against. She also fancies herself as Cinderella.

Yeah, in retrospect I'd have done things different in that incident. If only I knew what she was sooner. Then I would have been a better shield for the family around me - because knowing the truth of how she works is the best defense. As it was the best I could do was draw the fire. Even though it hurt to be the target I at least felt better knowing who the target wasn't.

I didn't tape record her, though that was a thought a few times. I wrote down a few of the worse incidents, but have since destroyed and discarded them. Honestly I don't think I need to remember the details to be reminded of why I have nothing to do with her. That incident with dad is enough for me, and I will never forget it for as long as I live.

TIM,

It's unfortunate what happened with your daughter. Kudos to you for protecting her. If it were me, I'd probably go re-buy the movies and not even speak to N-mom about it at all (she'd probably like the attention). That'd be because I doubt she'd give them back should I comply, probably with some "ooh, I guess I lost it" excuse. Plus dealing with N-mom wouldn't be worth the cost of some movies. It also sends the message that I don't need anything from her, not even what she is holding hostage. I don't negotiate with terrorists ;)

She'll hold hostage what I value and unload the random junk I don't want as generous "gifts" I should appreciate. I'll just say no - the same answer I'd give if someone told me they'd give me a million dollars to spend one day in a room with N-dearest. It's never worth the price.

But that's just my opinion.

Kathleen said...

Tim,
I wish I had words of wisdom for you, but I'm not as familiar with NPD as others here are.
I will tell you it's been a year since I cut off my ILs -- and it was followed by cyber-stalking and a smear campaign. But that's okay. I didn't change my mind, I didn't knuckle under. I too wanted to protect my kids.

I know this is hard, especially being an only child. I'm sorry you're going thru this. If you read everyone's posts, previous and present, they all seem to have the same mantra
NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT.

I wish you peace.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

One of the more bizarre lies she told was that her mother was adopted.

Why, then, does her son look like the spitting image of his great-grandfather? Rather odd, if you ask me. They don't just look similar, they look like images in a mirror.

Just another example of the ridiculous extent of the N's lies. Everthing is a lie. If she opens her mouth, it is to lie. Everything must be made more exciting. How exciting is reality?

Anonymous said...

Comments have been made about Ns manipulating circumstances to make themselves the centre of attention.

I recently came across an online support group that defined narcissism as wanting to be the centre of attention at all times, and psychopathy as manipulating circumstances to make one's self the centre of attention.

Anna Valerious said...

I don't think the definition is valid.

Anonymous said...

I found this blog several months ago when my son was going through some indecision as to whether or not to allow his N-father to see his grandson.

The background to this is: My son went no contact with his N-father in October, 2007 after the "last straw hit the camel's back." My son lives in a European country which is the country of N-father's birth. N-father lives in USA. My son is divorced but has his son three days a week.

In July N-father notified my son that he would be visiting European country in August and wanted to see his grandson while he was there.

My son and his ex-wife decided that their son should never be exposed to his N-grandfather but at the last minute they were waivering on whether this was the right thing to do. I sent them the url of this blog and it gave them the confidence to hold to their decision.

Big Explosion

N-father's girl friend sent a letter to all the relatives in European country telling them about awful son and ex-daughter-in-law.

N-father was seen walking around neighborhood where son and ex-daughter-in-law live--possibly looking for grandson's school.

N-father called ex-daughter-in-law at work requesting to see grandson and talking about what a successful businessman he was and about how he was going to leave grandson a big chunk of money in his will.

N-father visited all of the relatives telling them what a loser his son was and how broken hearted he was that he couldn't see his grandson. NOTE: On N-father's previous visit to European country, he spent a total of three hours spread over three weeks visiting grandson. He delivered presents and spent the whole time talking about himself.

N-father called son's former employer to get information about why son was layed off with that company.

N-father called son's current employer and told them that son was a total loser.

N-father went back to USA after four weeks without seeing grandson.

It is my opinion that N-father, my ex-husband, is a dangerous predator. His actions have strengthened the resolve of my son and his ex-wife that this man will never, ever see his grandson again. It is certain in my mind that he would try to poison his grandson against his parents.

Of course, I am being blamed for all of this. I am being blamed for manipulating my son and his ex-wife into doing this. The truth is that it is in my son's divorce contract that grandson would never be left alone with his grandfather. This is in the agreement at the insistance of the ex-wife. But this happened before my son went NC with his father. Then my son took it a step further when he went NC and his ex-wife supported him on it.

It wasn't until this whole thing came up that I told my son about NPD. I am kicking myself for not telling him before but I had always thought I was doing the right thing by not talking about his father. I thought that my son needed to make his own decisions where his father was concerned and I guess I just hoped that his father would treat him better than he treated other people.

Do whatever it takes to protect your children against these evil people.

Since my ex-husband went back to the USA things have been very quiet. It's not over. We know that. This man will do something but we will just have to wait to see what that something is.

Anonymous said...

My ex-N friend was dating a man I'll call "Jack". When it appeared that Jack wasn't worshipping at the altar of the N, as much as the N may have liked, it was decided that he would be dumped. However there was a 10 day vacation planned that my N really wanted to go on, so they did.

They had a wonderful time, and my N did the dirty deed in the car on the way home from the airport. My N called and told me all about the trip, and said they broke off the relationship, Jack was fine with it- the feeling that the relationship wasn't working was mutual.

The following day, a bewildered Jack called me, the poor bastard was completely blind sided. They had a great time on vacation and got along really well, and he had no idea why N broke it off. He was given absolutely no explanation as to why, he had no idea what he had done to warrant this, and was quite upset.

I phoned N about the conversation I had with Jack, and he accused him of lying. Then he went on to list all of Jack's vacation faux pas: he never paid for a single dinner at the resort, he was rude to the service staff, he slept late on the morning they were to take a boat cruise for the day, he constantly criticized N, and one morning after taking a shower N discovered there was $40 missing from his wallet.

So to hang on to his good guy image, the N turned this man into a cheapskate, a liar, an inconsiderate cad, and a thief. It was as if he was editing a script, he didn't like reality, so he would rewrite his personal history.

Anonymous said...

My trials and tribulations seem almost trivial compared to other posts here. However, I have to tell SOMEONE that my N-mother, after I had firmly declined to "lay down my weapon" and attend the tribal gathering at her house, developed minor stroke symptoms and WENT TO THE ER. Was admitted for work-up, all tests came back negative and she was discharged in time to enjoy Thanksgiving at home with 25 guests. While I did ALL her work for six days. Just escaped this morning. Never answer the phone without checking caller ID. How DO you say "no" in a situation like that? I was in the trap before I even knew what was happening. I am furious with myself. When will I learn? Did I know? Am I a masochist of monumental proportions? Geez!

GraFXGrl98 said...

""I know of a narcissist who had gotten off the hook for her bad behavior for decades because her family members always defaulted to the thought that this person was simply clueless. Like a child. And, like children, somehow less culpable for what she said and did. So she was given a pass over and over again because it was assumed she just didn't understand the effects of her words and behaviors on others. Needless to say, this narcissist made a very good "living" off the life blood of her family for a very long time. ""

Anna - I didn't know that you knew my mother!! lol. My Nmom is STILL draining my family - I seem to be the only one who doesn't deny it but hey I'm free.


Tim, stay strong man! Ns will not go NC quietly (can I get an AMEN!)
It is like a crack addiction and you are taking away their supply. Just knowing what to expect helps. Read as much as possbile of this blog -knowlage is power!

Anonymous said...

Thanks again for posting this topic. I have been mulling it over, since I have been long perplexed with the way N's often blatantly lie and act falsely and knowingly with extreme cunning - and other times when they truly seem to be in a naive fantasy world and seemingly DON'T know it, and it always made no sense to me that they can be so smart and so stupid at the same time.

N's can lie so cleverly it is astounding, clearly they have to have a sharp grasp on reality and on how things work to be so insidiously effective of a liar. And we know they usually know they are lying: some N's openly laugh about lying to people, and they all turn on a dime and change stories whenever they need to find something that "works better", etc. Obviously, truth isn't even remotely an important factor for the N - only plausibility, and what gets them the results they crave, and they seem damn skilled at it.

But what has continued to confuse me has been how they ALSO seem to really believe things that are pure wish-based fantasy that they seem quite truly sincere about, especially when it also defies their intelligence level, life experience and very obvious commonly known facts about how life works. The types of facts most adults know inside and out. I have seen N's hold truly odd beliefs and base expectations on them, and become truly confused and shattered when those bizarre expectations do not come to pass. I knew an N who believed if she had certain thoughts for a certain amount of days she would win the lottery. Seriously! Hello? Earth to N? I have seen N's fully expect jobs that they hadn't a chance of getting, expect whole careers to materialize without skills or practice, expect relationships with people they barely knew, etc - and to be truly stunned when these things don't happen. This is all besides their penchant for paranoia and conspiracy theories and medical quackery and "unusual" religious practices/beliefs. Yet these are the very same people who can be highly functioning evil geniuses of subtle manipulation - IT MAKES NO SENSE!

So, what I get from this is that it is not so much do N's 'get' reality or not, but more that N's freely cherrypick the reality that suits them, and believe sincerely in whatever they need to - based on themselves, period. A unilateral reality. They effectively tune into reality as a tool when they need it, but tune it out when it interferes with their needs and neatly sidestep into wish-based fantasy whenever necessary. Whoa. "Disdain" for reality, except when handy as a tool to screw with the folks who live in it and abide by its rules?

I have noticed that there is one thing that really gets to an N, and that is when I cease to argue or explain and just sincerely don't care that their version of reality and my own do not match up. It makes them very nervous... maybe this is why. They don't just want to cherrypick their own reality, they also desperately want us to act as if it makes sense anywhere outside of their own minds.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"His actions have strengthened the resolve of my son and his ex-wife that this man will never, ever see his grandson again."

Ironic, huh? NGranddad really believed that they would cave. Good thing they didn't.

Anonymous said...

Yes - reality just gets in their way, and they'll do whatever is necessary to distort it for themselves and anyone else they can con into playing along. I like this quote from The Last Psychiatrist: "A narcissist is a psychopath who has assimilated the emotions of the character he is playing." Describes my exN husband to a T.
Marie

Anonymous said...

Things I know of the sib-N :

1. Lies.
2. Distorts.
3. Disappears on whim.

1. Reappears with apologies.
2. Lies.
3. Distorts.
4. Disapperars on whim.

1. Reappears with apologies.
2. Lies.
3. Distorts.
4. Disappears on whim.

And finally, gets shocked (this is personal opinion) when little old me dosen't accept the latest apology and immediately the shock is turned to a rage of words via e-mail.

I forgot who said it, but someone said don't JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain). This was after my incident, but my instincts were right on the mark with the help of God Himself and that is exactly the way I had handled it. Doesn't mean that my N-Sib won't mouth something else via-e mail, but I bet they have to think a little harder this time. From the tone of the e-mail, they were totally caught off guard from my response. A few days though, and they were right back and into the "your worse than me" mode.

How many agree with this sentence:
N's talk, others do? It seems to go along with a lot of the content I've been reading.

Anonymous said...

It's me again Anna. I'm needing to ask another question. My sib has repeatedly said they are a rotten person, but then continuously year after year continue down the same path. This IS the way of a Narc right? The sib *says* all the things that are actually true about themselves, but then goes on to repeat repeat repeat the lifestyle. It's evident that the sib is fine with the process as long as its THEM that talks about it. But, don't YOU dare say something that points to that conclusion. That's when they turn it on me to being the worse one, because after all, they KNOW and ADMIT what they are and who am I to think I am any different or better.
thanks.

Anonymous said...

And so the blessed, joyous holiday weekend ends. I put my elderly narcissist mother on the plane this afternoon.

Beginning Wednesday afternoon, when she arrived, my beloved husband and I danced attendance on her every whim. We skipped time with our college-age sons, home for the weekend as well, to take her to an arboretum. We took her shopping. We drove her TWICE to her "dream" church and sat through the services with her, where she literally worships the nationally-known pastor, again missing time with a soon to be departing son. I booked pedicure appointments for us, and I paid. Every moment, as far as it was possible, was spent including her, coddling her, and listening to her revised-reality memories.

It's odd, those memories. Stories in which I, the young daughter, actually was the hero or the protagonist, were edited. According to her, I was nowhere in sight when the stories occurred. It was either my only brother (the blessed prince) or the narcissist mother herself (the exalted queen)who saved the day, or whatever. I wasn't even worthy of accurate memories.

So this morning I finally popped the rage balloon when I didn't read her mind. I didn't linger over morning coffee when she wanted to "chat." Instead, I thoughtlessly went off to shower and dress. From there, the bad-daughter rant just went on and on and on...

What a miserable time. Just like all the other miserable times. But what is there to do? I can't abandon my elderly mother. And so, I try to obey the scripture by honoring my mother obliquely, by simply putting up with her. But such a path is dangerous to my physical health, because such over the top stress can't be good, and it's dangerous to my spiritual health, because I find myself angry with, and blaming, God himself.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

From "Emotional Abusers" at Heartless Bitches.com:

"Just because he admits his behavior (and WATCH - some abusers are VERY good at acknowledging they did something without apologizing, or admitting there was anything WRONG with the behavior.), does NOT mean he is willing to change it, that he will not repeat the behavior, nor that he even believes he did anything unacceptable, hurtful or wrong. DO NOT take admission of an act as a sign of integrity, acceptance of responsibility, a show of remorse, or an indication of genuine caring, unless you see EXPLICIT behavior that demonstrates it."

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"A few days though, and they were right back and into the "your worse than me" mode."

Don't believe it. They just expect you to "forgive and forget" so they can continue treating you like crap. The "rage filled emails" say it all.

Anonymous said...

The last ten years before my N-mother's death were absolutely miserable for me around the holidays. Being an only child, I thought I had to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with her. I used to have her over to my home for Christmas and she usually stayed five days.

I learned over time that she was not too bad the first three days. Trouble always started on the 4th day. The snide remarks, nit-picking criticisms and just plain disrespectful behavior would begin the morning of the 4th day and continue until she left.

Sooo....I decided she would never stay at my house more than three days. She no longer drove so I would just tell her that I had to take her home at the end of the third day. It worked like a charm the first year.

After that, she began her disgusting behavior on the second or third day. The last time she visited my home, she went into an absolute rage on the third day. I took her home and dumped her. That was the last time she ever entered my house.

On Thanksgiving and Christmas after that I went to her apartment and cooked dinner for the two of us. I usually arrived about 9 am and put the turkey in the oven. By 4 pm I was always on the way home. She hated it and always wanted me to spend the night. Of course the only place for me to sleep was on her hard sofa which was so narrow, I couldn't turn over without falling off. I never stayed.

On these holidays at either my home or hers, she would not allow the TV to be on. The only thing I could do when I wasn't cooking was sit and talk to her. We had nothing to talk about. Even though I did not know anything about NPD at that time, I had learned the hard way to never tell her anything specific about my personal life. The only thing we talked about were her hobbies, her medical problems, her latest coup on the stock market, her latest discovery of an absolute miracle herb or vitamin that would cure everything that ailed you. Her lectures about why I wasn't eating properly. (Note: She didn't have a clue about what I ate.)

It was during this time that she began to rewrite history. I was informed that she had never in her life had high blood pressure. (She took medication for it for years.) Her mother, my grandmother, was a good woman and was kind and generous with other people. (She was an absolute hateful, selfish WITCH that ruled everyone in her world.) Things that I distinctly remember happening never happened. (My memory was wrong. I was mistaken. I was too young to understand.)

I learned about NPD several months before her death. I wish I had known before but I don't think it would have changed anything.

Did she actually plan her obnoxious behavior to take place the last two days before she went home? I kind of believe that she did. Especially since the pattern changed after I began to take her home at the end of the third day.

I did not mourn her passing. I didn't celebrate but I was so relieved. I now have wonderful holidays. I enjoy every minute of them.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous Dec 1, 2008 9:37:00 PM

I feel your pain! Ain't it awful? The inner dialogue with God makes it that much more intense. For some reason (Divine Grace?), I was able to "do it all as unto the Lord" this Thanksgiving and peacefully (for the most part) simply accepted the role of servant for six days. Because it's true -- you can't simply abandon an elderly parent. Unfortunately

As for narcissistic rage, I had been unable to see it in my N-mother. (Much more evident in N-Dad) Then my baby sister stated, when NM went to the ER, "She's just pissed off." All of a sudden, I saw that my mother has always raged. She rages silently, sullenly. Through facial expression and body language she has terrorised the household all my life. It's easier for me to confront overt anger because I have some clue as to its source. With silent rage, you are never quite sure what provoked it so you think you may have said or done something to justify it. 99.9% of the time, this is not true Regardless, she expects YOU to figure it out and make it better. Not easy with someone who neither knows nor loves the truth.

Anonymous said...

OMG! Anon 7:46 a.m. Dec. 2!!!!!
You've just given me the answer to my life question on my Nsib and mom!! Silent rage! That's it! I'm going overboard on the exclamations, but this is an epiphany for me!!! All my life I've been plagued by the fact of how I was always vocal in my *fits* and those two set silently waiting to use them against me later on. What you said about the sullen and silent part is like a LED light in my face. I am right there with you on the fact it's easier to deal with someone who's upfront rather than covert. Thank you thank you THANK you for the insight.
WIAH: thanks for responding to my question. My Nsib is really right from the page you read from. I know I've written long posts lately, but I think my sib can write an entire page when one simple sentence will do. I suppose it's from trying to *cover* all bases with the latest lie, er *reality*. LOL

Anonymous said...

Appeasers seem to also make a willful break from reality, at least at some point after engaging for too long in the N's world and playing by the N's rules.

What else would allow them to witness abuses of innocent people and pretend it is not happening? They too chose fantasy over reality, for utterly selfish reasons.

Anonymous said...

"I have seen N's fully expect jobs that they hadn't a chance of getting, expect whole careers to materialize..."

The N's warped sense of entitlement is so over the top it's almost funny. My ex-NF brags about a big time screenwriting career that doesn't actually exist.

For starters, he can't write. Being the typical N, he refuses to make any honest effort to learn his craft. People who actually know what they're doing have tried to offer pointers and suggestions, only to be ignored, insulted, or treated to a wildly inappropriate N freakout. His behavior has become increasingly bizarre, as he's running out of people who will play along with the fantasy. A bitter N is not a pretty picture.

Diane said...

My dad has said several times throughout my life when referring to his two ex-wive's families: "They are only alive because it is against the law to kill them". He is so bitter and hateful and evil inside, only myself, my sister and my poor mom who he is still married to have seen his true discusting self. The rest of the world just sees his grand facade and thinks he is the greatest. He is a lie upon lie upon manipulative decieving lie.

Kkathleen said...

Appeasors. Yuck. All my DH's siblings are appeasors of The Grand Puba -- but one I kinda' feel sorry for.
She cut so much school by age 16 the principal told her to either repeat a year or quit. So she quit!! She forged her parents' signature!! When they found out a few days later, their attitude was "oh, well. what can we do?"
WHAT????

I remember my DH telling me how his sister quit school but it wasn't his parents' fault - she was removing notices from the mailbox and they never knew. I remember looking at him like he had two heads.
ME: "Whatever happened to where's your homework, your report card, what do you want for lunch, what did you do in school today?"

He looked completely shocked, then quiet. As our children entered school, he was right there chaperoning class trips, doing homework with them, attending parent/teacher conferences. He was very involved.

His poor sister -- got her GED when she was almost 30. Now she is an appeasor and an alcoholic and drops everything and runs to do daddy's bidding, although she lives 40 mins. away from him and is married. It's really sad to see.

And it was her who called me a week after he died to "tattle" on him -- HE joined the service at 19WITHOUT CONSULTING MOM AND DAD!"

Major sin.
And this poor woman truly never had a chance at a normal childhood, normal adulthood.
It's worse than that, but I've gone on long enough.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Heyyyy, Anon 11:59 a.m. -

"My ex-NF brags about a big time screenwriting career that doesn't actually exist."

Geez, I wonder if your ex-NF is my sibling????????? I am totally serious. Mine also likes to brag about books that aren't really there.

TIM said...

SOME OF THE MOST RECENT POSTS DISCUSS NOT ABANDONING AN ELDERLY PARENT. I TOTALLY DISAGREE,BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T LOOK OUT FOR YOURSELF FIRST,YOU WILL END UP LIKE ME, SEEING A THERAPIST,MARITAL PROBLEMS CAUSED BY NMOM, A DAUGHTER WHO WAS BRAINWASHED TO BELIEVE THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO LOVED HER WERE HER NGRANDPARENTS AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST ATTENDING ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASSES FROM YEARS OF BUILT UP ANGER DUE TO NMOM MAKING MY LIFE MISERABLE.

SO PLEASE WHEN YOU WRITE POSTS,PLEASE DON'T TELL OTHERS THAT IT'S AN EVIL THING TO ABANDON A NPERSON.

I BELIEVE ANA'S HAS REPEATEDLY ADVISED EVERYONE HERE ABOUT THE RULE OF NO CONTACT. ELDERLY OR NOT.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

I hope you don't think that because I didn't abandon my N-mother I am advocating for others to do the same.

I didn't even know what was wrong with her at the time. I thought I was trapped with an extremely controlling and selfish woman.

I honestly believe that NC is the only way to go. I applaud you for protecting your daughter from the rot her grandmother was handing out. I also applaud my son for going no contact with his N-father and protecting his son.

Anonymous said...

Tim, I am the author of the original post that mentioned not wanting to abandon my elderly narcissistic mother.

I do agree with you. There are times and circumstances in which no rational choice exists apart from temporarily or permanently "divorcing" a parent, elderly or not. A parent is capable of inflicting buckets of damage on an adult child. My mother is almost blind, forgetful, disabled and very, very old--but fully able to hurt, hurt, hurt.

The fulcrum here is choice. I alone can choose when the divorce is the only option left, and well...I'm just not there yet. I pray God's leading in this, and I trust Him to make it abundantly clear when I'm called to walk away from her (as my poor sister has done), and right now I chose to stay. Tomorrow I may wake up with God's clear leading to separate myself from her, but that's tomorrow, and right now I manage through today.

If you're called to divorce an elderly parent, I know it would be because self-preservation is a higher priority than your parent's needs. And it wouldn't do any parent any good for their adult child to lose themselves, physically, emotionally or spiritually, in sacrifice to the altar of "mom."

TIM said...

I AM SORRY,IF I MISUNDERSTOOD YOUR POST AND THANK YOU FOR THE KIND WORDS.

DEALING WITH MY NMOM HAS CAUSED SO MUCH DAMAGE TO ME EMOTIONALY,SPIRITUALY AND MENTALLY. I'M IN MY 4TH WEEK OF NC AND MY EMOTIONS ARE SWIRLING.

Anonymous said...

I needed this post today. It was enlightening considering that I have a coworker who makes jailtime sound somewhat appealing.

I'm a teacher and our goal is to be there for the kids. It's not about ceaseless powermongering. However, we have a new teacher on our grade level team who is most likely an N.

The year started out with her seeking our approval for her room setup (arrangement of desks, posters on walls, etc.) It struck me as odd that she had to ask about that. We all took it as her being new and she was just anxious about her job.

We had our planning meetings and we walked through the material we were going to be working on each week and we wrote the lesson plans. We gave her the materials we were using to work with the kids. We even told her how to teach things. Everything was all fine and dandy, right?

Wrong.

She's been complaining to everyone that we don't help her and that we don't give her the resources that she needs. She's been doing this complaining since her kids started failing her class (math) because she doesn't know how to teach the material though we've ALL told her how to teach the material in a way relevant to the children. Though we do this, she STILL insists on doing it her own way (that confuses the children). In addition she uses her co-teacher when she doesn't know the material and then claims, "I don't know what was wrong with me this morning. I was just so foggy since I woke up at 4 in the morning!" rather than admit she doesn't know what she's doing.

Since she doesn't know what she's doing, she's complained to the principals, to the people in the administration building that no one is helping her at all. She's alleged her co-teacher (the one responsible for implementing special education modifications in class) doesn't do anything, that her mentor doesn't do anything and none of the other teammates are willing to help her.

We were, but we aren't now. We're just as human as the next schmuck. We had a meeting about all of this crap with one of the principals she said, "I want to thank you all for all the help you've given me." The rest of us looked at each other out the corners of our eyes each one of us briefly donning an expression asking "what the hell?"

She even cried a little saying to one of the team members, "I get the impression you feel like I'm a burden." She then took something one of the other team members said out of context and tried to use it to throw her under a bus.

I find it interesting how she's rewritten history to try to say the entire team is against her. How could something be wrong with all of us? It's not as if we're all a bunch of master teachers out to destroy a newbie, but she's trying to make it seem that way.

Anonymous said...

Years ago I remember reading Dear Abby in which a mother was contemplating what to do in a situation where her child was concerned. Seems the grandmother had wreaked havoc in the mothers's life and she was asking advice on what to do concerning her child. Abby told her that self preservation is more important than faked family togetherness. Those words, like wine, have become better and better with age for me.

Di said...

I can really relate to the N's denial of reality. I honestly thought I was losing my grip on reality when I was married to my N, as I always remembered things so differently to him.

Then one day we had a discussion about buying his dad's old car from him. We'd agreed his proce was reasonable, but as money was so tight we decided to ask him if we could pay him in ten monthly instalments.

By this time I was so unsure of my memory that I asked my N to confirm three times that that was what we'd agreed. yes he said, three times. Off he went to ask.

An hour later he was back, having told his dad we didn't want his car. When I said that wasn't what we'd agreed, he said that it was.

That was the beginning of the end. I knew that I remembered that conversation clearly. I still do, 15 years later. I started to wake up that day.

Several years later I realised that he'd probably asked his dad to give us the car free, then had a rage when the answer was no, he needed the money and told him to keep his rotten car.

It was alright for him, he used our car to take himself off to work. I was the one on the bus, taking the toddler and baby to daycare before taking another bus to work.

I'm so glad this happened now, that event was what started ne thinking and talking to others, and was the catalyst for my changing my life.

Kathleen said...

Forgiveness. That is something I had struggled with for a while, but I did percieve it to be something I would actively undertake because of THEIR actions.
Since then I've been OFFERED FORGIVENESS by THEM!!! LOL LOL
What a bizarre concept!

My DH has an online obit courtesy of the funeral home where condolences and messages can be left. After I had removed several inappropriate messages by the ILs, and after the cut off,
one of them wrote that my DH was a "true reflection of his family, kind, loving, generous.....and forgiving."

Talk about disdain for reality!!
They are OFFERING ME an olive branch! They are magnanimous enough to forgive me for cutting off their N supply and willing to allow me to supply it again!
How very big of them.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

My N decided to quit his job and take six months off to travel and work on a few projects in his house. It was a good paying job and the benefits were excellent.

I asked him if that was such a good idea, being that the economy wasn't great and that jobs in his field were hard to come by and not paying anywhere close to what he was making.

He got really offended, and began to spout off about how he was a professional, and held a high position in a major company and would have no trouble securing a job when his 6 months were up.

His company wasn't exactly what you would call 'major', and being a narcissist he lied about his job title and never bothered to keep up on the current software connected to his profession. Being in his fantasy world, he believed that he would send out a couple of resumes (which were heavily embellished), and he would be snapped up by a company and given the keys to a corner office with a view.

In reality, he was more behind technology than I realized, and even lying on his resume didn't help his case. Instead of getting the training he needed to catch up, he decided to embark on a new career instead. He auditioned for commercials, applied for teaching positions, a hotel manager-none of which he was even vaguely qualified for. During this time of abject rejection, I noticed that he would constantly feel the need to put me or other people around him down to make himself feel better. I avoided him as much as possible, one minute he would be spewing poison at me, and the next he would be talking about a place he sent a resume to and how they would be fools not to hire him. At the time, I thought he may be having a nervous breakdown, but it made much more sense when I realized he was an N, and as an N he felt a huge sense of entitlement and lived in a fantasy world where if he says that something is a certain way-than it must be so.

Sibling Survivor said...

Anon 8:32,

That is why I'm TERRIFIED that N-sister wants to be a teacher now, and she wants to teach elementary school. I don't know if that's more frightening or not than when she wanted to be a doctor.

The crazy part of it is that she hates math, science, reading, and learning. I'm just hoping she finds something else to do, like sales, which I think she'd be pretty darn good at. She is a master of manipulation and convincing everyone that all is well, after all.

Of course, now this gives her license to accuse me (as she's started doing) of being greedy and in it for the money. Note that money has always been a prime concern of hers - she wants to be extremely wealthy.

It just couldn't be that I want to actually help support our parents in their old age since the never got to save for retirement - we always lived paycheck to paycheck. It couldn't be that I want the financial security to be able to provide for my children (if/when I have any), support myself, or help the family in times of financial crisis.

So remember, if you want to be self sufficient or in a position to provide for or help others, you are greedy. This public service announcement is brought to you by the letter N.

Anonymous said...

Another thing I get from what you quoted in this post is willfulness and choice. She is not saying N's are delusional, but disdainful. That the N is contemptuous and dismissive of facts and reality, as it suits them. For anyone who fancies the N to be 'mentally ill', this is a solid argument against that.

No matter how they insist on anything, I believe that deep down the N's know they are full of shit and that their foundation is built on sand. Their own actions prove it. Why else would they simultaneously work to undermine the people around them as they push their "reality"? They wouldn't need to do that if they felt truly confident and aligned about the crap they insist upon, nor would they do it if they were delusional. They get Very Nervous around anyone or any situation could really expose them. And they make sure that their inner circle contains only people they can easily annex and control.

I don't know if others had this experience, but in my N household the "outside world" was always held in a contempt of sorts [insert N snort of derision here, at the idea that the opinions of the 'outside world' can be believed]. The N's continually implied that they corner the market on reality, and on 'who' [or maybe 'what' is more appropriate] I was. It was constantly implied that no matter how positive the outside world may respond to me, it was sure to backfire any moment when they found out who the 'real me' was [ie, their never quite defined fictionalized account]. So, if I got good grades, or won awards, or had any kind of positive experience - it was openly regarded as a joke, as if I had in a way 'pulled something over' on people, and I would surely be exposed any minute for the "impostor" I was, if not right then sometime soon - inevitably. And if I connected with supportive, healthy people? Then it was me who was delusional, and I was failing to see the people's "real" failings or apparent agenda to exploit me [!].

This is such a perverse projection that I don't know where to begin... The only people in danger of being exposed as impostors? The N's... The N's always promoted the idea that they alone have the real bead on people, the 'realer reality', and it always made me feel like something was hanging over my head when I was interacting with other people. Like I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop, wary of being somehow found out. I never really discovered exactly what it was either - what "other" people were supposed to discover about me! Except maybe that I had been raised by wolves?


Sibling Survivor:

"So remember, if you want to be self sufficient or in a position to provide for or help others, you are greedy. This public service announcement is brought to you by the letter N."
Thanks for cracking me up!!!

Anna Valerious said...

Another thing I get from what you quoted in this post is willfulness and choice. She is not saying N's are delusional, but disdainful. That the N is contemptuous and dismissive of facts and reality, as it suits them. For anyone who fancies the N to be 'mentally ill', this is a solid argument against that.

Anonymous,

Thank you for the accurate as well as succinct reiteration of my post's point. Indeed, there is a large distinction between being disdainful of reality (truth) and being truly delusional and unable to discern reality in the first place. You've correctly asserted that this distinction is a solid argument against the N being 'mentally ill'.

The rest of your comment is also very well stated and I identified with every word of it. I suspect the reality revision shenanigans and projections you've described are probably within the experiences of virtually every child of a narcissist and many of those who've encountered Ns later in their lives.

Raised by wolves...ha....no doubt about that!

Di said...

"I believe that deep down the N's know they are full of shit and that their foundation is built on sand. Their own actions prove it. Why else would they simultaneously work to undermine the people around them as they push their "reality"? They wouldn't need to do that if they felt truly confident and aligned about the crap they insist upon, nor would they do it if they were delusional. They get Very Nervous around anyone or any situation could really expose them."

I think Anonymous put that so well, I'd never thought of it in quite that way before.

And it explains why, as soon as I got emotionally healthier and recognised my Ns antics as games and power struggles, and stopped responding to his trying to push my buttons, he stopped speaking to me altogether. Our sons now arrange their own contact with their dad and I have total NC.

I always thought he must know why he's up to, and this confirms my suspicions.

C2CD2 said...

Another great read Anna. I recently OUTED my narcissists X mother in law and her entire family. The result is a lot of what this article is about. They wanted to try and gain masses, calling me the liar even making things up about me because they felt they had to attack back. I met them with the truth which I have no fear of. Now were in a silence period. I am awaiting the next attack... But over the years I have learned to stay one step ahead. This is going to be a long drawn out process but in the end I feel good in knowing that gave them the opportunity to do the right thing, when they did not.. They should have seen it coming because they did it to me for year. Yeah, I know two wrongs do not make a right, however when you have had your share there comes a time when you have to fight fire with fire. If you are interested in seeing how I outed the infiltrator and the rest of the cult here is where I did it: www.justiceforjustinandjeramygolden.com Some may call it wrong, I call it Justice served and I stand accountable, thats the part they can not stand.

Grace said...

Hello Anna,
I just found your blog, subscribed and will be a regular reader here.

Brilliant idea about how to determine who and to what extent they are narcissistic, by the embracing of truth or lies.

I would say that all narcissists and sociopaths that I personally know avoid the truth as much as possible.

However there are other people who are too weak or confused to face the truth who are not narcissists. Avoiders, escapists, addicts, and emotional cowards. These are the people who can use good role models of honest people, to show them the way.

Narcissists, from what I have seen are hopeless. Trying to urge them to face the truth only brings pain.

I got one of the narcissists in my family to admit to being a narcissist, but then he dismissed me and has retaliated ever since.

Grace

http://flourishingincrisis.wordpress.com/

toni said...

The Ns can be so convinced of their reality that they sabotage themselves over and over. One of my Ns went to the attorney with her fiance to do a pre-nup, which she insisted upon. Her behavior at this meeting was apparently the first sign to the poor guy that something was off. She said the attorney wasn't on her side (was "mean") and her fiance was "distant". She sought validation from me and told me what happened. She told the lawyer that there better be no chance that she has to share anything of hers under any conditions, even if her husband becomes sick or disabled. She said she was very clear and adamant about this. She went on as if this was a normal healthy thing to say, and fiance should agree. I think he just sat there in shock. I suspect even the lawyer was disgusted with her, and now she doesn't understand why everyone is "against" her. I frankly don't know anyone except for another N in the family who would validate her on something like that, esp. since fiance treated her so well, even through her own illnesses. Yet she seeks approval for this from normal people, so she's living in an alternate universe where this kind of thing is good, black is white, up is down. Then she said she's glad she found out before hand that her (ex) fiance was not supportive of her.

Anonymous said...

I commented on an earlier post about holidays.. I wrote how I'd been up a couple nights unable to sleep pending a trip to see my mother for the first time in 2 years. I also mentioned my husband and kids did not come with me.

Anyhow I did go, and I did have a car for an 'escape'. But mom lent her car to my sister on day one! So my car that my brother gave me to use was the only car. Like playing chess!

Anyhow the week was ok,I did have a frank conversation or 2 with mom--she didn't like that much--like when I told her I thought the reason she was broke is that spends too much money.

On looking back at the conversation though I realize that she must have told me dozens of carefully crafted lies and I'd missed most of them.

Anyhow not long after I spoke to her I was approached by almost all my siblings cautioning me not to talk to my mother about her condo and also casting shadows on my brother's character--the poor dumb guy who actuallly bought her condo to spare her losing it for back taxes-- and telling me NOT TO tell him what they were saying about him.

Well-- I went to his house the last night I was in town and I told him what was said --after I told Mom I was going to do that.

The guy bought her condo to help her--and she lied and told him she was making condo fee payments--which she did not for 7 straight months! He ended up paying for all those fees, plus a garage door, a month or two of rent and now has reduced her rent as she hasn't worked hardly at all since he bought the thing.

So the family paid him back by dutifully slandering him to me when I came--no doubt using talking points she carefully instilled in them.

And I'm the 'bad guy' for exposing it.

What kind of woman would throw her own kid under the bus like that? And WHY do her kids then respond by helping her even more????

I know that I am probably a subject for discussion now. I already heard about how I was hitting the bottle at 9 am on Thanksgiving day! (not true)

A case is being built. Meanhile I'm asking Hubby what we can do to 'help her out' finacially--and feeling like ok--I don't know. I know that she has leached off friends and relatives and has made a very good living during the years since my dad died--but in spite of that she continues to make it look as if it were my Dad's fault she is broke.

And nobody wants to call her on it--because we all know how well that goes.

She's very good at it though I'll give her that. I've never known anyone to do so good a job at controlling others.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Don't give her a damned thing, that'll "help her". Especially since she repays helps with slander and it only continues so long as she gets "help".


"Then she said she's glad she found out before hand that her (ex) fiance was not supportive of her."

I'd say that the Ex-fiance was the lucky one. I hope he realized that he dodged a big bullet.

Alexia Thompson said...

To Anon of Dec 4, 2008 11:44:00 AM--

I highly suggest not helping her! This is why Anna (and many of us) suggest No Contact. It means No More Lies, No More Leeching, No More Worries about what they'll say or do to us.

You sound like you're wondering what she'll do to you (or say about you) if you don't "help" her. If you give her the money, who or what situation are you really helping?

As for Ns' disdain of reality, I can relate. My N-mother (I shudder using such an affectionate word for such a vile person) also disdains the outside world and the community in which I grew up, even when she was volunteering and working in it. She seemed to consider them all as "fanatic apes" without ever talking to them. Only a very select number of neighbors were ever invited at home, and then they usually didn't make a repeat appearance, except for one woman who has been an N-abler for over 15 years now.

She particularly dislikes anyone whose profession was to uncover truth - journalists, psychologists, priests, marriage counselors, etc. Yet she espouses at least some conspiracy theories. I have never asked, but one of my brothers has told me once that she believes that "hackers control the world through phone lines".

I sincerely can't stand N-ablers anymore. They're the theater set designers for Ns, and do the lighting and sound (the Ns write the scripts). However, I refuse to play the world they want to force on me. Let the Ns suffer the consequences of their own actions! That has been my motto ever since I went No Contact.

Kathleen said...

There's the sister who yells at her father for money to go out to eat, although he has a heart condition.
There's the Mom who tells her very young granddaughter terrible things about the child's parents.
There's the Mom who accepts a condo from her son, but turns others against him.
The fiance who wants to insure that even if her BELOVED is sick or disabled, he gets nada of what is "MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE."
There's my ILs (all Christian, so they say) who take food from the widow and fatherless, and then sak for more!

Where in hell do these people COME FROM???

Oh. Wait a minute. I think I just answered my own question.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Great post,Anna.This is why they can slander me to others because their "reality" has nothing to do with the truth.I think that they`ve been lying for so long that, they believe that it is the truth.They`ve got everyone fooled.

I`ve been no contact for several years now and a n family member sent a letter to my dc.They went to great lengths to find out my address.I got to say that I was kind of shocked.I didn`t let him see it, of course and it`s not the first of this type of letter.They are trying to munipulate and make me look bad to my dc. The letter was all about trying to justify themselves.They had no remorse for their behavior.

Thanks for this blog, Anna.No one that I know "gets" what`s really going on here.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said @ Dec 5, 2008 8:06:00 AM

> I`ve been no contact for several years now and a n family member sent a letter to my dc [...] I got to say that I was kind of shocked. <

Last weekend I was still giddy because I'm not going to an N-orchestrated Sinterklaasfeest tomorrow but to a loud and hopefully wild concert this night, when I was messaged out of the blue on the local equivalent of Facebook by a complete stranger.

Roughly translated:

"How are you. There is someone in this world who cares very much about you but you don't have contact with that person and because of that this person grieves very much did you know that"

Thinking it was either a misguided attempt to seduce or convert me I asked for more details about 'that person'. Turns out it was my father (no, not 'Father' ie Jahweh) with whom I broke contact 16 years ago.

I wrote the woman back in no uncertain turns that I didn't want to have contact with my father, a typical narcissistic bully, ever again.

Think of the implications: someone who has had ample opportunity to change, to be sorry of what they did, to grow up, whatever, recruits an easily manipulatable woman to do what he should do himself. How cowardly is that?

I know for a fact that he also has an account there, so this is not a matter of computer illiteracy, for example.

Thanks to my enlightenment the nausea only lasted an afternoon.

Thanks 2x.

laurie said...

I've been lurking for a few days and reading reader comments and I just can't believe how many stories I can relate to and I just had to let you all in on NM's latest episode.

She had jury duty this week and had really worked herself into a lather over it. The day before we were having dinner and she brought it up again and my oldest daughter (13) said "would you like to trade places with me?" and of course NM answered with a big "yes, yes I would" Ok, so she'd rather be in middle school and all the crap that brings than lose a day sitting around, whatever. I rolled my eyes and she saw me and complained. Later that evening she called me about something else and after we were done talking she said, "I called the # I was supposed to and I do have to show up tomorrow for jury duty" I then said "Well, what did you think?" Luckily she just said "I got to go" and hung right up. The next day I called and asked her if she was coming over for dinner. I had just caught her as she was walking in the door. She didn't want to come to dinner and when I asked how it went she said "Do you even care?" When I said that I just wanted to know if it was as bad as she thought she went into how I wasn't being "sympathetic" and how I "was acting like I didn't give a &*@#."

I'll tell you, it was no act. I know that she just wanted me to pour on the "oh, poor you" but that was NOT happening.

So, the next day my DH calls her to see how it went and she complained to him about me how I rolled my eyes and didn't care that she had jury duty.

I don't know what is worse, that this really happened or that I'm actually typing this to a bunch of strangers. This is just such an embarrassment.

But do you want to know what is really funny? Although she complained about my bad behavior she made no mention to him what happened after dinner on Thanksgiving (he left early to drive his DB to the airport) How she sat down after we ate and took all the turkey meat off the bones and did absolutely nothing else. After I cooked 75% of the meal and had to wash, dry and put away every dish used.

Her back was bothering her, but that didn't stop her MOUTH. My aunt and her husband were over and while me, her and my aunt's DH were in the kitchen he asked me why I don't drink (as my mother was knocking down martinis one after one - the glass was small but still) I joked that if I started I wouldn't stop. He got the joke but she didn't. She kept saying "yeah, tell him why you don't drink" I don't because I just don't. I have 3 daughters (3,9,&13) and while I have nothing against people who do drink it just isn't for me. She then proceeds to tell him about the time I got drunk when I was a teenager (I don't even remember how old I was 15? Anyway, over 25 yrs ago) and threw up and none of my friends would tell her what I drank or where I was when I did. So he says, "Well, that's probably why you don't drink anymore" But that wasn't good enough. She went on with "oh, yes she did. I know she was drinking when she was with that loser...weren't you drinking when you were with that loser?" I don't know which ex bf she was talking about; I've been married for 15 yrs and have 3 dd's. I just said "I guess that making mistakes when you're young isn't OK"

I'm sorry for the long post but I just had to tell you all. How pathetic!

krl said...

Arrrgggghhhhhh! That's all I have to say right now. Just sick and tired of Ns. They SUCK. SneakyLyingWeaselz!

Thanks for this post, Anna....and all comments.

TIM said...

TODAY IS MY 4TH WEEK OF NC FROM NMOM. SO I WALK OUT TO MY CAR TO GO TO WORK AND I FIND A LETTER ON MY DOOR HANDLE OF MY CAR. IT'S FROM NDAD OR ENABLER AND HAS WRITING ON THE FRONT OF THE ENVELOPE AS WELL AS A 2 PAGE LETTER INSIDE. THE LETTER BASICALLY IS A HATE MY WIFE LETTER, SAYING THAT SHE CONTROLS ME, THAT SHE WROTE THE LAST EMAIL BY ME ASKING FOR NMOM TO LEAVE ME ALONE. THAT SINCE OJ GOT HIS THAT MY WIFE WILL GET HERS. THAT IT WAS BS THAT MY DAUGHTER GOT SCOLDED FOR TELLING ME THINGS NGRANDMA WAS SAYING. THAT I AM BEING CONTROLLED BY MY WIFE AND THAT I WILL HAVE ALOT OF GUILT FOR GOING NC. HERE IS A EMAIL I WROTE TO NDAD IN RESPONSE:

FIRST, WHEN YOU SAY IN THE LETTER THAT I HATE YOU. YOU ARE WRONG. WHAT IS SAD FOR ME, IS THAT I FORGAVE YOU 13 YEARS AGO FOR POINTING A GUN AT ME AND NOW YOU WRITE SUCH A MEAN LETTER TO ME. HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE FORGIVEN SOMEBODY FOR POINTING A GUN AT THEM?

YOU CONSTANTLY SAY THAT I DON'T WRITE OR SPEAK FOR MYSELF. YOU ARE WRONG.
I WRITE MY OWN STUFF .

WHEN YOU SAY THAT MOLLY CRYING ABOUT BEING SCOLDED IS A BUNCH OF BULL. YOU ARE WRONG. MOLLY CRIED IN MY ARMS ABOUT BEING SCOLDED BY MOM.
MAYBE MOLLY FEELS COMFORTABLE TALKING TO ME BECAUSE I LISTEN TO HER. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY THAT. MOLLY IS UPSET AT MOM AND DOSEN'T WANT BE AROUND HER. YOU COULD FIND THIS OUT FOR YOURSELF, IF YOU JUST LISTEN TO MOLLY.

YOU ALWAYS SAY MOLLY IS SMART, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO MOLLY SAYING HOW MOM SCOLDS HER AND TELLS HER NEGATIVE THINGS. YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT.
I GUESS WHEN IT COMES TO MOM AND THE TRUTH, THAT YOU HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING IT. SO DOES THIS MAKE MOLLY NOT SMART?

I DON'T HATE MOM, I DISLIKE HER BEHAVIOR. SHE IS TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING TO MOLLY THAT SHE DID TO ME WHEN I WAS A CHILD WHICH IS: EVERYBODY IS BAD, ONLY MOM AND YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT LOVE HER. THIS IS WRONG TO TEACH A CHILD TO LIKE ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE AND TO SAY NEGATIVE THINGS AROUND THE CHILD ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

SINCE YOUY NEVER BELIEVE THAT I SPEAK FOR MYSELF, I'M SURE YOU WON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING I SAY IN THIS E-MAIL, BUT YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT SYLVIA'S PARENTS. THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN NICE AND RESPECTFUL OF ME. YOU JUST NEVER HAVE PUT EFFORT IN TO GETTING TO KNOW THEM AND TO TRY AND BE A FAMILY.

A FAMILY IS NOT JUST YOU AND MOM, BUT A FAMILY MEANS EVERYBODY.
YOU AND MOM ALWAYS WANT TO BE SEPERATE FROM EVERYBODY. I DON'T LIKE THAT.
MY FAMILY INCLUDES YOU AND MOM, MOLLY AND SYVIA, SYVIA'S PARENTS, BROTHERS,SISTER AND EVERYBODY THAT IS FAMILY.

I WILL NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO SPEAK BAD ABOUT ANYBODY IN MY FAMILY. YES SYVIA HAS SAID MEAN THINGS ABOUT MOM, BUT AFTER HOW MUCH SHIT DID SYVIA TAKE FROM HER. EVEN THOUGH I DID TALK TO SYVIA, BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY.

YOU MAKE UP SO MUCH OF YOUR LETTER, TALKING ABOUT SYVIA. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SYVIA THAT YOU SPEAK TO HER ABOUT IT. YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM WITH SYVIA, SO YOU NEED TO TALK TO HER.

THIS WHOLE SITUATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SYVIA OR YOU.
IT HAS TO DO WITH ME AND MOM. I HAVE ASKED HER MANY TIMES NOT TO SAY NEGATIVE COMMENTS IN FRONT OF MOLLY. I HAVE BEGGED HER AND TAKEN HER TO A PRIEST TO TRY TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT I HATE. I DON'T LIKE NEGATIVE THINGS BEING SAID AROUND MOLLY AND NO MATTER WHAT I DO, IT CONTINUES TO BE A PROBLEM EVERY YEAR. I HAVE ARGUED WITH MOM IN FRONT OF YOU ABOUT THIS ISSUE. SHE WILL NOT CHANGE HER BEHAVIOR, THEREFORE I CAN NOT CONTINUE TO SUPPORT HER AND PRETEND LIKE EVERYTHING IS WONDERFUL.

SHE NEVER LISTENS TO ME AND YOU BOTH DEGRADE ME CONSTANTLY AS A MAN BY SAYING THAT I DON'T MAKE DECISIONS OR SPEAK FOR MYSELF.

I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE KNOWING THAT I DID EVERTHING POSSIBLE TO TRY AND HAVE A HAPPY FAMILY. MOM JUST CAN NOT STOP SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT OTHERS AND THAT'S WHAT I HATE. YOU ARE WRONG BY SAYING I HATE MOM, WHAT I HATE IS HER BEHAVIOR.

YOU ARE WRONG WHEN YOU SAY I HATE YOU. IF I WAS GOING TO HATE YOU, I WOULD HAVE BEEN HATING YOU SINCE YOU POINTED A GUN AT ME. YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR MOM'S BEHAVIOR. SHE HAS HER OWN MIND.

I TOLD YOU IN THE LAST EMAIL THAT IF WANTED TO HAVE A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ME, THAT IT WOULD BE YOUR CHOICE. BUT YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO WHAT ME AND MOLLY ARE TELLING YOU. MOM IS HURTING US AND IF YOU TRULY LOVE ME AND MOLLY , YOU WILL FIND IT IN YOUR HEART TO SIT DOWN AND JUST LISTEN TO ME AND MOLLY TELL YOU WHAT MOM HAS DONE TO ME AND WHAT SHE IS DOING TO MOLLY.

WHAT SHE IS DOING AND HAS DONE IS NOT RIGHT. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HATE, IT HAS TO DO WITH DOING THE RIGHT THING.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOU FRIEND NOT SEEING HIS PARENTS FOR 12 YEARS, YOU CANNOT COMPARE ME TO HIM. WHY? BECAUSE I HAVE DONE EVERTHING POSSIBLE TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. HE PROBABLY DIN'T. THST'S WHY MAYBE HE FEELS GUILTY. HOW CAN I FEEL GUILTY FOR PROTECTING MY DAUGHTER FROM A PERSON THAT CONSTANTLY SAYS NEGATIVE THINGS AROUND HER. MOM IS DONE WITH ME. I NOW REALIZE THAT SHE IS NOT FIXABLE.

AS FAR AS YOU, I FORGAVE YOU FOR POINTING A GUN AT ME AND I WILL FORGIVE YOU THIS TIME FOR DEGRADING ME AS A MAN AND NEVER LISTENING TO ME TELL YOU, SINCE I WAS A CHILD HOW MOM HAS MENTALLY FUCKED ME UP. I CANNOT ALLOW MOLLY TO BE MENTALLY FUCKED UP AS I AM. THIS IS WHAT THIS SITUATION IS.

IT IS NOT ABOUT ME, IT IS ABOUT MOLLY. I WILL NOT ALLOW OVER MY DEAD BODY FOR ANYBODY TO BRAINWASH HER THE WAY I WAS.

I HAVE NO GUILT BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW, THAT IF YOU CONSIDER ME YOUR SON AND YOU LOVE ME AS YOUR SON. THAT YOU ARE WELCOME TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME. BUT IN THE FUTURE IF YOU EVER START SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT SYLVIA OR ANYBODY ELSE IN MY FAMILY, THAT I WILL NOT HESITATE OR HAVE GUILT ABOUT NOT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU.

YOU ARE WELCOME TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME THAT IS LOVING,CARING, AND RESPECTFUL OF ME AND THE PEOPLE THAT I LOVE.

I WILL NOT LIVE ANYMORE THE WAY THAT I HAVE. FAMILY'S STICK TOGETHER THEY DON'T DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

FROM TIM AND YES EVERTHING I WROTE HERE I USED MY OWN BRAIN AND MY OWN FINGERS.

Anonymous said...

This is a brilliant gem of a post!

Anonymous said...

Wow, great post and great blog. I was a child of a narcissist mother. For a long time, I knew inside something wasn't right but I didn't know what it was. And, for many years, I think I was growing into someone who was a lot like my narcissist mother.

Long story short, I had a relationship end and it made me take a long, hard look inside me and yeah, I started seeing the truth...that I was becoming someone I didn't like very much. Seeing that within myself changed my entire world. The funny thing was that it was my mother having one of her tantrums and "cutting me off" because I wouldn't do something she "told" me to do (I don't need to be told to do things, I'm a 30 y.o. woman for heaven's sake). Getting away from the N personality in your life allows you time for some introspection and get a look at reality that's not distorted by the N personality. I was surprised at how distorted my perception of everything was.

I really try to make an honest effort of not becoming like my N mother. I'm so afraid I'll become like her.

PND said...

What you said here: " If the malignant narcissist you know had the lack of accountability that a dictator has or had lost her fear of the law then you know what they would be capable of. Murder and torture would be standard fare for those under their power."

really worries me.....

My ex (psychopathic) is the silent type, he has no fears, no anxieties, never got stressed or allowed the environment or circumstance to effect him in any way.

He wasn't a beater, or an addict, he wasn't even loud, he would never raise his voice not once.

I sometimes wonder if the "silent type" is capable of much more than the "physical" type is (the one who shouts, yells and beats his wife)

It has been known that "The silent ones are those to watch out for"

I wonder if that's really true, and how long I might have left to "watch" and start "acting" in defense.

Anna, your post bought some anxieties to light today, I have read what I didn't want to hear or know because I had hoped that even though the psychopath and I are apart, and he stalks me online, I didn't think him to have the guts to rage against me in violence.

He is too quiet and silent, I cannot fathom even one shout coming from his lips let alone a fist going into mine.

I just pray he keeps his distance

May Day said...

I'm really confused because although I know that my exN (we still live together unavoidably for the moment)has constructed a reality that is in itself a lie, I've never actually caught him lying or been able to pinpoint his deception. He claims to always tell the truth and while I don't necessarily believe that, there's no way to know otherwise.

On the other hand, over the past few years I have started to lie regularly (or omit details) and this has increased. The reasons I lie are to avoid interrogation and confrontation, and to protect myself. He has an unhealthy interest in the details of everything I do and will always attribute the wrong motives and thoughts to my perfectly benign actions, but is this kind of deception any better really? There are also consequences if he finds out something that he doesn't like, such as if I have been in contact with an old friend or ran into someone without telling him. Is lying excusable under those circumstances or does this indicate that I am a narcissist to a certain degree also?

He uses this as a reason to paint me as a liar and give nothing I say any credit, because "why should he believe me anyway when I've lied before?"