Saturday, October 25, 2008

Calling Narcissists Evil: Stumbling Block or Life Line?

A question was asked of me in the comments section for my post, "The Perennial Question...Are Narcissists Evil?"

Is it always necessary to view the N as "evil" in order to go no contact? I can see where recognizing evil is beneficial for the victim who is having trouble breaking away from the N. Are there cases of victims who successfully broke away not by defining the N as evil, but just by defining the situation as incompatibility? I ask because some victims, for a variety of reasons, may be reluctant to call the N "evil", and this may be a stumbling block.

People who are stuck in relationships with narcissists are generally people who have been reluctant to call the narcissist evil. The stumbling block they are dealing with is their own inability to properly label the malevolent force they call "Mom" or "Dad" or "Spouse". There is very little evidence to support a contention that my calling narcissists evil is a stumbling block to individuals who are in a relationship with a narcissist and thereby preventing them from breaking from the narcissist. Truth is, it is their own reluctance to call evil by its right name that is the problem. The problem is not that I am consistently calling narcissists evil. On the other hand there are reams of evidence that many who were previously unable to see the evil of narcissism have found relief and escape from seeing narcissists properly labeled as the evil force they are.

Is it necessary to view the narcissist as evil in order to go no contact? Is just seeing the situation as being a case of incompatibility enough rationale to make an escape? I am sure there are people who can justify leaving a relationship based on simply calling on incompatibility as justification. My blog isn't for those people. They don't need to read what I have to say. In fact, this person is very unlikely to go to Google to type in some search in order to demystify what they've gone through or are going through. They have simply shrugged off the parasite and moved on. No damage done. The person you describe has likely never even seen my blog.

What I've recognized is that some relationships are very hard to extricate from due to societal pressures and ingrained teaching from our earliest moments of sentience. Parents. Children. Siblings. Spouses. Probably in that order. These are the relationships which we find very difficult to terminate based alone on that word "incompatibility". No one distances themselves from their parents by simply citing "incompatibility". It is never that easy.

This means that the person who is being systematically destroyed by a narcissist...usually by a family narcissist...has a daunting task before them. The task is to properly identify what force they have been trying to reckon with all these years. Many of these people have been reluctant to label this force as being "evil" mostly because the narcissist has taught them to see things upside down and inside out, black as white, and evil as good. How many times have family narcissists presented themselves as the embodiment of all that is good? All. The. Time. If someone doesn't call the narcissist's so-called good what it really is...evil...then there is likely little hope of helping the victim out of their victimhood. They will continue on believing that the evil is centered in themselves, that they are the one who is crazy, that they are the problem. You know, all the lies the narcissist has taught them to believe in order that the narcissist can escape accountability.

You don't have to be entangled with a narcissist for very long to get the sense that evil exists. The problem is that you're not quite sure where it resides. This is because the narcissist is careful to project their own evil outward from themselves onto whomever is handy. Likely, YOU. The narcissist is well aware that evil exists in themselves and are desperate to not get pinned down themselves with the very proper label of evil. Here, on my blog, I will put the proper label on the evil doer. I will not mollycoddle anyone by mincing my words. My creed is: never fight reality because reality always wins. The narcissist is the one always fighting reality. We cannot hope to win against the narcissist unless we fixate like a laser beam on reality. It is reality that exposes the narcissist. One of those realities is that what they do and what they are is EVIL.

I am not daunted by people's reluctance to call evil by its right name. I present my case. Blog post by blog post. Definitions, evidence, moral principles. What is very interesting is how many times someone will dismiss evil when it happens to them but can clearly see some act against someone else as being evil. We have been taught (by the narcissist) to minimize the effects of evil behaviors on ourselves, but we will often not minimize evil when it is perpetrated on someone else. This blog is often a place where people can see the evil done to others. With a little extra help they are then able to make the leap, "If that behavior is evil when done to others then it was just as evil when it was done to me!"

In my opinion, based on personal experience, individuals who are 'put off' by calling narcissists evil have their own ulterior motives. There is very likely some behavior in their own lives they are trying to justify, to get away with. A behavior(s) which is destructive to others and aggrandizing to themselves. There is simply too much evidence that the narcissist is evil...as defined both by their intent and behaviors...to dismiss the label out of hand. When someone refuses to properly label what narcissists do and the effects they have on others then I harbor mistrust of that person's agenda. At the very least, I mistrust that person's moral sensibilities.

I am a blood hound set on the scent of the narcissist. I will sniff them out of their hiding place. They always hide under a cloak of goodness. A pretense of righteousness. They get away with their evil by calling their evil good. So, dammit, I will rip their shabby little fig leaves away so you can see the narcissist without their pretended goodness. What you are left with is naked evil. It may be an ugly sight but that isn't my fault. It is the fault of the narcissist for being spiritually, emotionally and mentally twisted and grotesque. It is the fault of the narcissist that they are predatory, cruel, hateful, insatiably coveteous of what you have, and emotionally arrested. I will call evil what it is. Each and every time. If someone is 'put off' by that then I accept that I have nothing for them. I can't be all things to all people and am certainly not trying to be.

This blog is specifically addressing the problem of malignant narcissism. As I've said before, a synonym of 'malignant' is the word evil. Malignant narcissism is destructive and malevolent. People who come here have been injured in some measurable way. Calling things by their right names is essential for identifying the problem and finding a solution to the problem. If someone was able to just cite "incompatibility" as a rationale for leaving the situation do you think they'd need to come to my blog for insight? People who come here are suffering. There is a reason for their suffering and I'm not afraid to name that reason.

Properly identifying evil behaviors and evil people is not a stumbling block. It is a life line. People may refuse to take the life line. That is their choice. I wouldn't throw a string down to a person trapped in a pit and say, "just grab this and you can climb out!" Would I get credit for trying to save that person even though I just threw them a string which is absolutely useless for the task? Not to sane and rational people. No, I will throw that person a knotted rope. They get to choose whether or not to use it. If they don't like my rope they are welcome to stay in the pit. I did my best.

66 comments:

nameless, but not voiceless said...

oh, definitely a life line for my husband and i. your blog definitely helped us to identify our n's behavior as pure evil, and i make no apologies for calling a spade a spade.

i've met people all my life that i just wasn't "compatible" with, and never did i suffer the torture inflicted by the narcissists i've encountered. incompatibility is just agreeing to disagree and accepting a person for who they are, without feeling obligated to continue a relationship. narcissists, especially family n's, won't allow you to just agree to disagree or move on without a war.

i thank God for guiding me to anna's blog, and opening my eyes about some of the most vile, evil creatures on earth.

katymarygirotti said...

Years ago,a few days before my wedding, my mother came to my home to visit. She lives across the country. She was wandering around my room poking at things as she always does and looked at two rings on my dresser. The first was a gold ring with garnets that she handed down to me at my grade nine graduation. The second was a diamond ring that had belonged to my Great Aunt that my aunt (her sister) had given to me after my grandmother died.

My mother looked at the garnet and said “oh, I see you’ve still got my ring. It’s still mine.” I told her no, that it had been her gift and I’d worn it for eleven years. “no, no, it’s a loan…I see you have Aunt Joan’s ring, too. I tell you what you can continue to wear my ring if you let me wear Auntie’s ring, which is too big for you anyway. Besides, I’m divorced and can’t wear my diamond and you’re just getting married and have a new one…” Anyway, she popped my diamond on her hand and walked away. I asked her for my ring back many times over the years. I told each of my sisters in law when they joined the family never to accept the ring as it was mine.

Two years ago my mother left a Leica camera from 1922 in our house. She asked my husband to get it appraised so she could sell it.

Segue to 2008. I went to visit my Aunt and my cousin overseas (who had just been married). As I flitted through her wedding album I caught a glimpse of my diamond ring on her finger. My cousin was thrilled and talked at length of the grand gesture my mother made on her wedding day giving her this family heirloom and what an honor it was – ignorant of the fact that it had belonged to me and that her own mother had given it to me. When my cousin left, I started bawling. I asked my Aunt how such a thing could happen. Of course, my Aunt thought I had not wanted her gift (and was terribly hurt) and that I had given it away. Additionally, I discovered that the Leica camera was my Aunt’s gift to my brother, 25 years ago and he never got it – something I could fix. To this day, I am grateful I broke down and talked to my Aunt as she learned the truth about the ring and could understand it had been taken from me.

My response was to send the garnet ring back to my mother in the mail with a note that said “while this cannot be fixed without ruining my cousin’s wedding day; you need to understand that your actions were not ok. Further, this garnet ring is tainted with the con played all those years ago. For years I owned two rings and in five minutes you appropriated one and kept ownership over the other. Take this back, I cannot wear it.”

The following is the email trail that followed with some references to a call to my aunt (who handled things magnificently):

Mother:

“You have made a mistake here, I am afraid. Your Uncle gave me that ring, after I gave him my Daddy's wedding ring and he lost it. The ring never was
yours and I never gave it to you and your Aunt didn't give it to you. I discussed giving the ring your cousin before I did it.
Their recollection and mine are identical -- we talked about it at the time.

So I am sorry you think you have been slighted. I am also pretty pissed off that you thought I could do such a thing to you. I am moreover, hurt that
you have returned the ring I gave you, which was precious to me, like this.
At the very least, you ought to have called and talked to me. Then we could
have sorted this out properly.

I will call on Sunday. I think you owe me an apology. If you wish, as a gesture of love, I will give you one of my other rings, or give you back the Jersey ring.”

I didn’t reply - but she sent a second email:

Mother:

“A gift is something freely given, with affection, love or well-wishing. Had you given the ring to me, I would have been free to do with it as I wished and saw fit -- in giving, you give up ownership.

So with the ring. Had you given it to me, you had no business being hurt or offended by anything I might do with it, let alone something that was a
loving gesture, returning a family ring to a family member on her wedding day. More
generously, you might have been touched and pleased that something special had been done with it. But either way, it is not something over which you
would have had any say any more, having no ownership. And it is offensive to suggest that I would deliberately not appreciate you and would willingly slight you or any gift from you. You have had a lifetime of my caring, love
and concern for you. Remember that, instead of getting upset by imaginary slights. You know me better than to think I would dismiss you as you suggest I have done.

Now to your response. Giving back a gift is rejecting the love, affection and well-wishing that it was given with. You don't do that unless you mean that you are rejecting, giving back, the love of the giver. It is a huge
rejection and a major act. It is not merely petty or spiteful (though it is that too); it is rejection.

Think about it. You are nearing your middle years, not a child, and this is something ill-considered about which I must speak frankly to you. You
thought you had been discounted and you were hurt. Fair enough. But -- even had you been correct -- you behaved cruelly. You insulted me by even considering that I would willingly dismiss, discount or reject you. You
rejected my gift and thus my love that came to you with it.

You have always had my love, through thick and thin, and you have it still, but I must not let you think that what you did was minor, okay, just something you did because you were upset and so you can expect that I will
swallow it without protest and just wait for the dust to settle. You have gone too far, and I owe it to my self respect to tell you that it is unacceptable.

Do not ever do that to me again. It is not worthy of you, and I do not deserve it.”

Well, I just had to reply to that, but I was in a keep it simply mode:

Daughter –

“You are mistaken. The ring came to me via my Aunt. This is the truth.

"You have gone too far, and I owe it to my self respect to tell you that it is unacceptable." These are my sentiments exactly.

I cannot pay heed to the lecture if you cannot concede that the ring was ever mine.

I am sorry that you cannot see your mistake; that would have made this easier to fix.”

To which she replied in three separate emails:

Mother -

“I have nothing to say” (which I think really means – I’m thinking)

And then:

Mother –

“On second thoughts there is something I want to say:

What we have is two different recollections. I don't think that needs to be fixed. It is as it is: it's an explanation. I'm not picking a fight. Are you? If you are, I don't fight with my children. What kind of elationship
do you want to have with me? That is up to you.”

Right, okay. Yep – I’m picking a fight as you can see; forgetting about certainly gets her off the hook, and means she doesn’t have to admit any wrong doing.. I didn’t reply. But she did:

Mother –

“Two things need talked about: first, what actually happened; second, How you responded.

Dealing only with the first, for now, here's what I have done. I phoned your Aunt today and had a long chat with her. Here's what we managed to put together:
1. In May 19xx Mummy died and I went over there to Windy Edge.
2. Your step father and I were breaking up, and after Mummy's funeral he gave me back
Daddy's ring while we were both still overseas, and I gave it to your Uncle.
3. Your Aunt gave me the ring, for you, and the Leica, for Andy, she says.
I don't remember that, but I am sure she's right. Maybe I never took her instructions in -- it was a very rough time for me, and my husband left as soon as we got back from the trip.
4. I phoned your brother -- didn't tell him anything of this, just asked him if he
ever had the Leica. He said no - I gave to to your husband. But that must have been later, because you didn't know your husband yet. You only went with your Dad to Canada shortly after your stepfather left me. I remember your dad and stepfather
sitting at the kitchen table in our old place, telling me how to run my
finances.

So I seem to have screwed up at least once. Maybe twice - or maybe not. You told your Aunt you remember wearing the ring. I don't remember giving it to you or ever seeing you wear it. And I certainly didn't give the Leica to
your brother, which apparently I should have done. As far as I can recall (it is all 21 years ago, and I was in bad shape between Mummy's death and the marriage break-up) I thought they were both for me, because I had given
your Uncle my Daddy's ring instead of keeping it.

If I gave you the ring, can you remember when? When do you think you gave it back to me.

What is clear, however, is that I have only half-remembered what actually happened, and I am sorry about that. I am very worried about my memory, I always thought my Mummy suffered from Alzheimer’s and maybe I am being stricken too. I am very worried.
It has made things difficult and you have been hurt. I am sorry about that too. (Your Aunt said she was not hurt by my having the ring instead of you, and just assumed that it was too
old-fashioned for you, or something, but she didn't say this to me when we talked about it before your cousin’s wedding, because she didn't want to hurt my
feelings. Now of course we all wish she had said something, but she didn't and for a kind reason. So it's done and can't be helped now.) We are all agreed your cousin mustn't know about this, you included. Perhaps you would like to
Keep the Leica as your brother never did receive it and it was worth more than the ring.

I wish you had just phoned me and we could have talked about. I got such a shock when I opened my mail that I was sick for 2 days with a blinding migraine and couldn’t get out of bed. That's the second thing we need to talk
about, but not yet, I think. We need to clear up first things first.”

So – my Aunt called her out and gave her the goods and she was essentially forced to back down.
But wow – that last email is so full of crap. My poor Aunt is to blame? If only she’d stopped my mother, now mysteriously afflicted with Alzheimer’s? Lovely. Just so you know, she’s never referred to her parents as “Mummy” and “Daddy” only Father and Mother. And the whole divorce crap? Well, I’m more shocked she was married twice than divorced twice. I love that I’m instructed not to tell my cousin she has my ring and that I made her physically ill. Just so you, with typical narcissistic flare, my mother barely clothed us, didn’t cook after I learned how when I was 9 and never hugged or kissed me in my life. She was heartless and cold blooded and we four children lived in servitude. My father and stepfather did attempt to improve our lot, but where run over by her ego. This is just to re-enforce that her emails are fairytales, beautifully crafted, cleverly manipulative, total and absolute lies, sprinkled with just enough truth to have great deniability. If she’s breathing; she’s lying.

There – that’s my most recent story. If you stuck with me, you’re a super star. Anna, I found the characteristics of narcissism through your blog which my aunt cheerfully calls the CON - we're all on here, my brothers, my father and my aunt. Thank you - we didn't know it had a name for so long. I miss my ring.

Katrina said...

"It is the fault of the narcissist for being spiritually, emotionally and mentally twisted and grotesque. It is the fault of the narcissist that they are predatory, cruel, hateful, insatiably coveteous of what you have, and emotionally arrested. I will call evil what it is. Each and every time."

This describes my sister Jezebel in fine detail. And yet, when I was first "treated" to her total loss of control at me, in a long personal shrieking confrontaton she laid on me,in which she said terrible things, it was just the
beginning of the process to extricate myself and my loved ones from her.

Your point is very well-taken in your commitment to call evil by its name. I for one greatly appreciate that commitment to unpopular truth. I'm sure you are correct in assuming that someone who leaves a relationship with a MN by calling it "incompatible" will most likely not seek out your blog. Those few that CAN just move on with no fallout. I can also understand what a victim/survivor is capable/incapable of at the "tipping point" spot at which they draw the line & say "no more contact" with the perp. In my case, it was just such a starting point,from which I am so far away 5 years later.

Back then, I hung up the phone from Jezebels insane call,devastated. Convinced that she had serious mental & emotional & insane jealousy issues. Knowing,
even as I sobbed in dismay, that I never would've let ANYONE else talk to me that way, without hanging up on them. That I had only endured it out of LOVE for my little sister. That if I gave her the GIFT of letting her GET IT OUT, then we could get past it & resolve things.
That I could HELP her get better, from whatever sickness she had. HA!

At that time, I was unable to label her "evil". Yet I FELT the evil. So I faced the fact that she was "TOXIC"--to ME. That was the extent of what I was able to attribute to her. That was the beginning of my facing reality where she was concerned. My removing her gradually from my life, from that point,was a long & painful process. During which time her evil spirit continued to surface more & more. The evil acts she has perpetrated against me are unspeakable. For over 2 years now I have not kidded myself in any way that I will ever have anything to do with her again. She is evil personified, & yet is "cloaked in goodness". Which of course only makes her evil that much more evil.

To think that 5 years ago the most I could attribute to her was "toxic to me".

It's hard for us to admit our loved ones are evil. At least we begin to start the process when first we look at them with eyes that say: toxic,incompatible,irreconcilable differences,unable to get along with,high maintenace,blah blah blah. As long as we OPEN OUR EYES!

And keep on walking...

Anonymous said...

I am happy to have come across your blog regarding "n". Your words are so true and I am happy to say, thankfully I wasn't married to the "n" in my life though it has certainly been a waste of many years no doubt.

Barbara said...

Properly identifying evil behaviors and evil people is not a stumbling block. It is a life line. People may refuse to take the life line. That is their choice.

Quote-worthy as always, Anna

Anonymous said...

Yep, calling it and them for what it is and what they are exposes the truth and, hopefully, others will begin to see the truth as well. The world has toooo many Ns that are getting away with unacceptable behavior and they need to be called on the carpet and exposed. Otherwise their unacceptble behavior will continue and harm others.

Thank you for the this wonderful website and insights!!!

nyc_live said...

Here's the thing about evil v. incompatible. If someone decides they are incompatible with me, or even if they were to decide I was evil, after some reasonable attempt at peace-making I would give it up. If someone does not want to be in a relationship with me, I am able to move on for my own sake and theirs; for while I am certainly incompatible with some people, I am not evil. If my presence in someone's life causes them discomfort, I back away because I hate hurting people. I do not want to continue tormenting someone while I beat them over the head with the remnants of our relationship.

However, if you tell a narcissist, "Go away, stop, you're hurting me," they do not. They will call or email you to let you know that you are wrong. They never hurt you, and you are wrong for saying they did. Just to prove it, they will do the same thing to you over and over so you can see it doesn't hurt and you were lying. It is as if your statement that you are hurt is like blood in the water to a shark. It excites them! They will, in my experience, not back off with anything short of prolonged NC. And that is not because they respect your feelings, it is because the lack of response bores them.

Also, a person genuinely hurt by rejection will often retreat into silence. The rejected narcissist does not. They trumpet the rejection as an example of mistreatment to all who will listen, and continue to stay involved in the rejector's life as much as possible.

Also, if I am rejected due to incompatibility I usually see it coming, because I am aware of my own flaws as well as the other person's feelings in a relationship. I do not want to be an an incompatible relationship, nor do I need to because I have plenty of people in my life with whom I have warm relationships. Because a true N is evil, they don't see it coming b/c they do not admit to any flaws, they don't care or notice the other person's feelings about the relationship, and all their relationships are messed up so they don't have anything "better".

Angela said...

Definitely a Life Line for me! I had no idea what narcissism was until I started reading this blog. After I left my N-husband of 10 years, I was told about this blog spot and it saved my sanity. My father is a N and I married a man just like him. UGH! I could finally identify that they are toxic people and it is not ME who is crazy. I had always felt like there was something wrong with me. I was "walking on eggshells" all the time with them both. And my N-father loves my N-husband. I thought they must be right in whatever they think. When I finally left my N-husband and started reading this blog, I finally got the courage to go NC with N-father. After years of drinking away my pain, I have quit drinking. I have 93 days of sobriety! I know now I am not the crazy one. They had belittled me till I had no self esteem or self respect left. Years of therapy and no one ever suggested that there were people in my life that were toxic to me. That I was normal. I kept wondering what was wrong with me.
In AA, there is a common theme that most people feel that they aren't normal and don't fit in with people. I wonder how many of them are the victim of N-people in their lives and they don't know?
By identifying the N's in my life through this blog, quitting drinking and taking a look at my life, I now have sanity. Even in the midst of the longtime, ongoing divorce fight with my N-husband. I can deal with my N-husband without falling victim to his N-games. We have a 10 year old daughter that we are fighting for custody over, so I still have to deal with him. But now, I have the confidence to do it. I'm gaining my life back, who I am without N's telling who I am.
I would never have been able to let go of my N-father without the knowledge of the evil he has treated me with. I attend church regularly and would have thought I should always "honor my mother and my father". Anna, you gave me my life back! Thank you for your Life Line and calling Malignant Narcissism the evil that it is!

Katrina said...

Katymary,

What a story! Thank you for the snapshot of your life, painful as it must have been to share with us. What a testimony to the courage & determination it takes us to face how they rewrite history & twist our words,emotions,actions into their own sordid uses. Yuch! Thank God your Aunt had the guts to call her out on this crap! It's so apparent why we get screwed up trying to fend off their twisted energy, directed at us.

nyc-live,in response to:

"Also, a person genuinely hurt by rejection will often retreat into silence. The rejected narcissist does not. They trumpet the rejection as an example of mistreatment to all who will listen, and continue to stay involved in the rejector's life as much as possible."

Wow! Isn't THAT the truth?!
And THAT is PRECISELY how my sister Jezebel began her smear campaign against me. First,by becoming the victim to everyone who would listen in our family,church,community,neighborhood,mutual acquaintances,etc,etc.
Then,by spreading lies & slander to people, who already felt sorry for her for my "horrible treatment" of her. Despicable!
Evil? Awww...DUH!!!
She covertly stalks me & my family,which is easy for her to do,as we are in the same town. Of course I would look like the nutcase to anyone else, as she brings up my name casually to people & gathers "intelligence".
It all appears so innocent. Until she puts her lying spin on all the facts of my life & adds it to her smear campaign.

Angela, dear,

I am so grateful for the spiritual awakenings you have begun to have!
Please know that, as a 24-yr.recovering alchoholic & grateful sober member of Alchoholics Anonymous,you are at the beginning of the journey of your life. Stay CLOSE to THE WOMEN of the fellowship. As emotionally damaged daughters of N's,we often gravitate to the same type of relationships that we were in while trying so hard to please our N parents. Steer clear of the men!
Stay in groups,outside of meetings. We are all recovering. Forming strong bonds with the women who have been working the 12 steps will take you through the pain of unwrapping those layers of recovery, in a SAFE environment.
93 days clean & sober is amazing!!
It is also a vulnerable place to be. Reach out to the RIGHT people.
God Bless! I will pray for you & your daughter. What a wonderful gift God has given you both!

Anna, great post,as always. Painful to digest. But a healing pain-getting beyond living in this
garbage dump!! My love to you.
Katrina

Sibling Survivor said...

I just wanted to say thank you to Anna and everyone who has shared their stories in the comments on the blog. They really do make a difference.

It's been five and a half years that I've been essentially no contact with my N sister (exceptions being physically present at some family events -- even then she knows I refuse to talk to her or acknowledge her presence).

Anymore the details of her mistreatment are getting fuzzy and fading. One one hand I'm glad I can't recall what she did and on the other I realize it just makes me more vulnerable to her history rewriting. Not to mention it saying bad things about my memory that I'd forget such traumatic events so quickly.

Your stories help remind me of why I cut off contact. I may not recall specific incidents, but I do recall how I felt. Especially when reading about others' dealings with Ns as that sparks a recognition of the same kind of behaviors.

It really does help at times like these where I continue to wonder if maybe she's "not all that bad anymore" and maybe she "grew up." I feel this way despite knowing I was her scapegoat for everything under the sun. Despite knowing she never took responsibility for her actions, never apologized, never was kind toward me, and was consistently abusive. Even attempting physical abuse to see if she could get away with it.

And I guess that sentiment is really me just wanting so badly to have an actual sister - to have that elusive relationship that never existed. The one she tried to pretend had always existed at my graduation with a bachelor's degree, and was so "hurt" because I rejected her attempt for the "happy sisters photo" (in front of extended family, no less) because I KNEW it was an insidious lie. The one she'll no doubt try to pretend again at my master's graduation in two semesters.

It's a lovely lie to think that such a thing really was; enough that I'm trying not to cry as I realize that it really never could have been. No matter the lack of bad memories -- the lack of GOOD ones is damning enough to that lie.

For me at least, calling a stone a stone and my N sister evil is a life line. It helps keep me in the right frame of mind. Even as the toxic misdeeds fade, and the hurt with it, the name itself embodies all that was there. It's a marker and a warning. Some of us need to see the writing on the wall to remind us we aren't crazy.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

What I love is how the nastiness, smear campaigns, victim/martyr playing often has the opposite effect of what the evil person wants. The more they try to do to stay in your life, the stronger the resolve is to keep them away.

The emotional blackmailing types are masochists. They get off on being treated cruelly and rejection so they can cry to victim to others. Still, it often results in the opposite of what they want.

Sister Renee said...

Amen, Anna! This is a great blog, and lots of food for thought. Thank you for standing up and calling a spade a spade- you give others the courage to do so as well. We can never protect ourselves and our loved ones from human evil if we refuse to admit that it exists, even in our own families. Once we overcome our natural tendency toward denial and start to understand that there are people out there who are, indeed, just EVIL, it becomes a lot easier to recognize- a valuable talent whether meeting new acquaintances or dealing with old ones. It's practically universal that those who are evil try to disguise themselves as innocent and good- how dare we even question them when they're so saintly? It's a diversion- so no one will believe us when we expose them- and many times we don't even believe ourselves what we see with our own eyes. But actions speak louder than words (1 John 3:7-10; Matthew 7:15-20).Evil loves to hide in the darkness. We need to bring it out into the light (John 3:19-21; 1 John 1: 5-7). By calling it what it is, and talking openly about it, we can help others do so, too. Only when we understand what we're truly up against will we ever be able to fight it. Thank you for being a voice in the wilderness, and giving so many survivors a voice, and validation, too. Please never stop!

katymarygirotti said...

Anna here's a question, I'm scared to ask. since we know that many children of narcissists become narcissistic themselves, and many on your blog have Nsiblings - how do you know if you are one or not? I know this sounds stupid, but because of my NMother, I have always been afraid that I talk too much (my previous post!); that people find me annoying; I'm unlikeable and then when I want to ask about that, I worry that my head is stuck firmly where it ought not to be and I'm thinking like a narc...does anyone else worry about this? How much thinking about one's experience is ok? I also struggle with empathy sometimes. I have become so inured to my mother's fairytale emotions that I tend to assume dramatic people are lying and I under react a lot in emotional situations. This terrifies me because I do care about people, but I am very suspicious.
KatyMary

Minta said...

Hi Anna,

I'm going to spend some time reading through your blog - it looks great and a lifeline as people have said.

My MIL is pure evil and has been diagnosed with NPD. Unfortunately she lives on our property and my husband is really suffering. My psychologist advised me three years ago to cease all contact with her after my mother died. She was awful - she phoned my husband and both my children and my SIL DURING my mother's funeral, sobbing that she had no-one to go to the shops for her. I also found out when my children became adults that she had been abusing them.

My hubby is willing her to die. He is so over her nastiness, manipulative ways, and her constant demands. He is feeling so bad that he does not care any more. She phones us several times a day - leaving messages that sway from cajoling, weeping, abuse, friendly, back to cajoling all on the same day. She has taken herself off her antidepressents and I'm concerned that she is getting ready for a confrontation. I don't have the strength for a fight with her, and I know from over 30 years experience with her that arguing back is a waste of energy because she doesn't believe anything you say anyway.

Do you have any advise on how to handle it when it happens? I'm like my hubby - I don't wish her harm but I wish she'd just go away..

Naive No Longer said...

katymarygirotti,

The mere fact that you are asking the question shows you are not a narcissist!!

When have you EVER heard a narcissist worry about or ask that question of themselves??? Nope. Instead, they spend their time trying to convince you and others how truly good and noble their nasty behavior is. They aren't capable of genuine self-reflection that might lead to the need to change their behavior.

Anonymous said...

Re ulterior motives to avoid calling NPDs evil, most notably one's family, I'd like to add:

- Humans are hardwired to tolerate close relatives to great lengths.

- Your world falls apart if you start to fully realize that your parents and some of your siblings are incurably evil and actively delight in your misfortune and that this will _never_ _ever_ change.

Mine did.

Jordie said...

On the question of thinking you may also be a Narcissist, I have been reading up on Stockholm Syndrome and how it affects those who have been abused. Anna has also addressed this in an earlier post on this blog. Stockholm Syndrome happens when a victim becomes enmeshed with their captor/abuser, in order to survive the abuse.

One of the problems I had was identifying so strongly with my mother that I thought I had become her on many occasions, especially when it came to dealing with my daughter. I thought I was being a bad mother, when in fact I was getting flashbacks to my mother's behaviour and thinking my daughter would hate me as I hated my mother. Fortunately my husband was able to help me see the differences.

Another thought here is of cognitive dissonance, which can kick in at times like this. Cognitive dissonance is changing your thinking to avoid dealing with unpleasant truths. Like the smoker who thinks they won't die from smoking because all the government warnings are just a conspiracy. When my husband would say 'but you're not a bad mother', I would try and explain it away by telling myself that he had to say that, he was married to me. In fact, that is the sort of thing my father would say about my mother and it was a direct lie both to us as kids, and to himself.

We are so used to having to explain away our Ns behaviour that we find it hard to recognise the truth, it doesn't feel real. Hence, its easier to believe the lie that you and your N are the same person, than to recognise that they are evil, and you were a victim of that evil.

I used to look in the mirror and literally see my mother and feel a deep sense of shame.

Now I realise that her thoughts, her attitudes and beliefs, and her shame were so deeply ingrained in me, and became so important to me as a child in order to know how to survive in her family, that I am only now able to separate myself from them, and her.

I now know that everything I have felt about myself is actually her perception of me, not reality.

She was the abuser/narcissist, I was conned into thinking she was the perfect mother and I was the pathetic, nasty and vindictive child that she had to 'put up with'.

Hope this makes sense, its something I have only just now recognised in myself!!!

Anonymous said...

katymarygirotti @ Oct 26, 2008 2:52:00 PM:

I think that the core of NPD is:

1) Severely arrested emotional and behavioral development to 3~6 years of age.

2) Actively preying upon people for (direct) personal gratification.

3) Outright refusal to change maladaptive behaviors.

(K. Krajco's writings tremendously helped to form my thoughts on this).

If you don't have these symptoms and/or are willing to ruthlessly eradicate any signs of narcissistic behaviour and thought-patterns in you (and grow up, belately perhaps) I don't think you have NPD.

The whole topic is one of my red-hot buttons, because each and any innocent or good deed or behavior can be besmirched. You do know that if you know any NPD up close.

I have had two NPD parents, and lived in their NPD lala-land for 24 years, constantly absorbing their anxiety and their attacks, mostly to protect my siblings. Stupid.

I was even officially diagnosed as having NPD by means of insightful questions as 'Are there people jealous of you and your success and plot against you?' and
bizarre indirect behaviour (not listening or responding to my questions, insincere, glazed smile, etc.) by those 'therapists' that drove me straight into the defensive.

And yet I deeply loathe, despise and hate everything that narcissism stands for and I have sworn not to become like my parents by all means possible, to repair any wrongs I might do, and generally keep my distance from people.

14 years later I have peace of mind for most of the time, apart from the occasional PTSD anxiety flashback.

I don't think I have NPD, but of course I say this only to gain your trust to sell you slighly damp city property in New Orleans later...

krl said...

ANOTHER wonderful post, Anna! Thank you.

To any and all of you 'new' people....please take the time....little by little....to read and re-read Anna's previous posts. They are wonderful....and helped me so much when I started this 'search' about a year ago. I, too, had so many of the same questions. (Early on, I even thought my Nmom so 'all-knowing' that she would 'know' I was reading this blog...How bad izzAT?! I was that paranoid!) There are no 'dumb questions'....and you probably aren't the first to wonder what you do.

I'm not very articulate....so I won't try to 'help' with any answers.....just letting you know that the previous posts and comments are a wealth of encouragement and information.

Hang in there....don't give up...keep reading and asking.

GraFXGrl said...

katymarygirotti, I know how you feel. You are not an N!
I grew up terrified of becoming like my mother in anyway (at a very young age!) even before I knew she was an N. It's normal to not to want to be like them (which shows you are sane). And as far as emotional people -that is normal too. We are used to people crying wolf all the time. It gets better with time I promise! After I went NC with NM I healed tremendiously and I am still healing. It gets better!

Kristina said...

For me it has helped a lot imagining the narcissist(s) as someone with an irreversible brain damage, that makes them mutations or imitations of human beings.
I know it sounds really "childish", but after one has analyzed, pondered and understood all the facets over and over, it can be a really great relief to have some really simple "thoughstoppers", when your mind starts slipping into their fathomless world.

"I don't know why she acts that way. I guess her brain is severly damaged. Hmm, what's for dinner?"

Never forget, they would love for us to think about them eternally and figure them out. They love to keep you spinning for ever...

;) Kristina

Anonymous said...

Dear Katy Mary,
You didn't talk too much, you had a long story. I read every word.

I worry too about being character disordered because of my chilhood. Because of my Mother's Arbitrary and Capricous ways I was left wondering what was up and what was down. Up until I went no contact with them, the whole family openly made fun of me for being paranoid. I am on edge about doing anything that seems or is illegal and I am suspicious about every purchase I make that someone tried to pull one over on me. This is a nightmare for me. One day I asked myself WHY!!! I deduced that if my own mother tried to cheat me and keep me from all that was fairly mine, why wouldn't a stranger do the same. It has been a real struggle to realize that in the most minor of purchases there wasn't a scam. I am getting better but I will never be right.

Anonymous said...

I love what Kristina had to say:

"I don't know why she acts that way. I guess her brain is severly damaged. Hmm, what's for dinner?"

Great way to get an N out of your head.

Anonymous said...

I had to laugh at Kristina's comment.

My husband and I had our N-friend over for dinner one Saturday night. When I brought dinner to the table, my N remarked that I had made enough chicken to feed an army. I explained that I had made extra because I had to put in a few hours in the office the following day, and I was bringing leftovers for lunch.

N began devouring the chicken, complimenting me on how good it was after each piece. I didn't think much about it at the time. But I estimate he ate at least 9 to 10 pieces of chicken, leaving one scrawny piece on the platter. He excused himself after dinner, went to the bathroom, and vomited. When he returned, we asked if he was okay, and he said he drank too much coffee and had to pee.

He made sure there would be no leftovers for me to take to work, even if he had to stuff himself like a pig and stick his finger down his throat to do it. It was one of the most bizarre things I had even seen.

We now refer to him as "The Chicken Chunk Blowing Pinocchio."

Anonymous said...

Brilliant post as always, Anna...

Do I gush?...haha. Can't help it. I've always been the constant cheerleader type, enthusiastically rooting for the actual underdog and for the persons who enlighten with profound truth, i.e...you!

I strive to encourage, support and embolden those who I see as beacons of blazing light and beauty. I'm amazed how some folks are quite oblivious to their own instrinsic gorgeous spirits, souls. So...I guess it's my joyful duty to remind them of such...:)

Your writing reminds me of a perfect circle, a centered dot surrounded by chaotic squiggly lines creating nothing but static, noise to deceive, disrupt, confuse. Yet, you diligently, fiercely focus on that dot. The dot of reality as it truly exists by your no nonsense, frank, indisputable logic and rationale content and tone.

I eagerly await every one of your posts and the subsequent comments from your lovely readers. After reading them, my first response (sitting alone in front of my computer with only my resident felines to hear)is..."HELL YEAH! Couldn't have said it better but I sure can wholeheartedly agree and respect!!"

Peace, love and joy for all...:)
Kimberley

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"He made sure there would be no leftovers for me to take to work, even if he had to stuff himself like a pig and stick his finger down his throat to do it. It was one of the most bizarre things I had even seen."

No self-respect. He's willing to do that so things are harder for you (well, not like you'd starve or anything, but still...). Like I said, no self-respect. Even a voracious fat person wouldn't have done that.

I hope he's no longer a friend.

Anonymous said...

so, what is in a heart-
It was strange how quickly he hatched his little plan. Discussing the evening later, my husband remarked how theatrically phony the compliments were about the food.
And you're right, I wasn't going to starve-he was blatantly inconveniencing me.
No, we're no longer friends!

Anonymous said...

The Chicken Eater didn't want it or he would have digested it. It's the same theme over and over, he didn't want her to have it and so he sabotaged. My Mother and Sister were the same way with me. I chalked my Sister up to sibling rivalry, but a person's own Mother? It took me 40 years to figure that one out. Imagine all the poor people who didn't have the internet and died thinking they were crazy. We are lucky for sites like this and Kathy's.

M said...

First let me say thank you for sharing your insights into this horrors of Malignant Narcissism. My (step)daughter & I found your blog only very recently several weeks after a major confrontation with our MN. I’d have given my eye teeth to be privy to some of your advice at the time of the confrontation, but even after, you’ve helped us put several things into perspective. You are doing a really good thing here. Keep up the good work.


As for this post, lifeline gets my vote on this one. Shakespeare’s line doesn’t just apply to roses; evil as well by any other name is still evil & Malignant Narcissists are not merely evil, they are sadistically evil. As I’ve told our MN in no uncertain terms, sugar coating doesn’t make reality any easier to swallow. Our marriage & the “blended” family created by that marriage have been plagued by near-constant attack from our MN since the day we took our vows 8 years ago & I have no problem calling that evil exactly what it is. As a matter of fact, the nickname I’ve used for our MN for several years now is Evil666 (that's Evil with the exponent of 666 if the superscript doesn't go through) & its proven even that an understatement.
There came a point at the peak of Evil’s influence on our family that I was ready to walk away from the love of my life, to just let Evil have the family we set out to create & to give in to the pure hatred this demon’s injustices evoked in me; but at the last minute, the Lord blessed me with the opportunity to be looking Evil square in the eye & witness as for the only briefest of milliseconds, Evil acknowledged to itself that in spite of all the battles it had waged & would continue to wage against us, the actual war itself had been lost to it long, long ago. Rest assured, just as surely & as quickly as I saw it register, I also saw this epiphany effectively shoved away into the deepest darkest recesses of Evil’s “Deny At All Costs” file. As such the battles rage on, one-sided though they may be out here in the real world. Nonetheless, I had seen reality dawn, however briefly, & the knowledge that my personal battle with this creature had been won before I’d even been drawn into it changed everything. I found I’d had the upper hand the whole time. It wasn’t long before this creature tested that theory to see just what kind of games I’d let it get away with. I proved the theory & let it be known that any games it tried to play would be played by my rules; and those rules are that there will be no games. I’ve been relegated to the “Does Not Exist No Matter What The Evidence Says Otherwise” category as a result. You can imagine how broken up I am over that one.
There’s a line in the movie “Tombstone” where Doc Holiday explains the sadistic nature of the outlaw Johnny Ringo: “A man like Ringo has a great, empty hole right through the middle of him. He can never kill enough or steal enough or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.” That’s our Malignant Narcissist in a nutshell. Pure EVIL. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of Good, the absence of God, the absence of Love. Malignant Narcissists diagnosed or suspected, people like Evil666, are incapable of feeling or giving love, let alone receiving it, hence the hole. They inflict pain by killing and/or stealing the happiness, dreams, emotions, hope, futures, reputations, self-confidence, self-respect, the very basic sense of self-worth, anything & everything from everyone around them in their quest to fill that empty hole. The harder they try, the more lives they destroy, the deeper it gets, & even though that hole is of their own making, they will find a way to dodge the bullet of responsibility every time & blame everyone else for what is wrong in their world, even when presented with irrefutable evidence of their own guilt. I’ve personally witnessed this with Evil666 & I’ve seen it literally walk right past—no, make that right OVER love numerous times in recent years. Evil doesn’t recognize love, even when it’s the love of its own children, the purest, most unconditional form of love possible for a human being. That is a truly tragic & miserable existence & that’s why Evil666 now has only my pity, not my attention, not my wrath. The moment I saw reality hit Evil, pity replaced the urge to give into hate & the need to seek revenge on this miserable creature. God had the vengeance thing under control long before I ever came into the picture & if you could see the life this creature is living today, it is very obvious that God doesn’t need any help from me.

After 5 years of using my oldest (step)daughter to launch near-constant interference & attacks from within our own home, we were fortunate enough to be transferred & put 1200 miles of physical distance between our family & this malignancy. We had peace for only a month or two, though, just until Evil came up with its long-distance strategy, this time with the intention of promoting my youngest (step)daughter to the position of chief minion. Evil underestimated her though. My youngest (step)daughter didn’t appreciate Evil’s efforts to destroy her family quite the way my older (step)daughter had; she wanted the love & stability we provided. She’d recognized Evil for what it is a long time ago & had no intention of playing the game her sister had played, so she made history as literally the first person on this planet to ever tell Evil “no” & not back down in the face of the inevitable wrath. As a result, the 2 years of emotional abuse that followed that initial “no” is now a matter of public record. The campaign it had waged behind our back by using its own child in an attempt to build enough “evidence” to “take us to court” ultimately backfired in its face; instead of destroying us, Evil merely ensured that it will go straight to prison should it ever be so stupid as to try & file any charges of any kind against anyone. All because a 14-year-old girl found the courage & the strength to stand up & call Evil by its real name.
Our daughter’s ultimate defeat of Evil is bittersweet, however, because of what she had to go through to get there. The advice from our counselor is that one should be prepared for nuclear fallout should one ever feel it necessary to tell a MN “no.” Our daughter was more than prepared; she was brilliant & handled the entire conflict according to biblical instruction with the utmost respect. When the final confrontation took place, she looked Evil square in the eye & very calmly & systematically shot down every lie, bribe & manipulation that Evil had ever dished out as well as every attempt it made to justify, excuse, or defer responsibility for its actions. In the end, Evil left knowing our daughter had made her point with crystal clarity & that it had a choice to make: face reality, accept responsibility for its actions, or accept that it no longer had a place in our daughter’s life. The level of maturity our daughter displayed, both spiritually & emotionally, surprised even her counselor. Words cannot describe the pride we feel as her parents; but neither can they describe the pain of having to watch her suffer, let alone describe the agony this child has had to endure for merely having the audacity to love a Malignant Narcissist enough to say “No” to being used as a tool, to exercise her God-given right to protect herself by saying “No” to emotional abuse, “No” to being dragged into that “great, empty hole,” for offering Evil a love like no one else on Earth has ever even considered offering it, a love that I personally watched Evil literally throw back in her face. The pain I witnessed Evil inflict on its own child with that singular act alone went far beyond mere evil to the purely SADISTIC. Perhaps nuclear is too tame a descriptive for that fallout, after all.
The ability to approach our situation from a Christian standpoint has helped me & my (step)daughter keep things in perspective. I’ve been able to fight Evil on a completely different level than I was capable of in the beginning. I’m grateful that the Lord showed me what a pitiful existence this creature lives & gave me the ability to get down on my knees & pray that God will touch Evil’s heart & reveal the truth of what it has done; that He might grant Evil a conscience so that it can finally see how its actions more often than not have inflicted greater pain on innocent bystanders than on Evil’s intended targets.
On the flipside of that, however, do not mistake Christian humility for stupidity. While I’m grateful that God has blessed me with the ability to pity Evil, I do not allow that pity to get in the way of the fact that He also blessed me with the intelligence to learn from our experience with this demon. God is the only One who can change this creature, its own child could not & I definitely cannot. No amount of human love will ever be enough because Evil666 doesn’t know what love is. Evil honestly believes it is at the very least God’s equal, so it would take an honest-to-goodness miracle for Evil to recognize, let alone acknowledge its only salvation. I know the Lord performs miracles every day, but I, for one, am not going to hang around to see if this particular miracle is in His plan, & I fully support our daughter’s recent decision to go no-contact as well.
One of God’s greatest commandments for us may be to love one another, but as you’ve previously & correctly posted, He also teaches “From such turn away.” God created hell in order to separate Evil from Good. He might not have put hell at our disposal, but He gave us other means to separate ourselves from the evil of the MNs in our lives & I truly believe He expects us to take advantage of those ways. Love these vile creatures if they haven’t totally destroyed your ability to do so, pray for these vile creatures if you can reach that point, but whatever you do, do it from great physical & emotional distance.
One final point & I’ll get off my soapbox. Having the privilege of being called “Mother” or “Father” is just that, a privilege. With that privilege, comes the responsibility to nurture & to love, not the right to annihilate. Any parent who chooses annihilation over love & nurturing looses all human privilege in my book. Evil needs to be called by its true name regardless of one’s relationship to it. I don’t care who they are, no one has the right to abuse another human being, especially a child.
The reality is that Malignant Narcissists CHOOSE to engage in their despicable behavior, they make the conscious choice to abuse & destroy whoever gets in their way & that is EVIL no matter which way you slice it. That reality needs to be faced, & trying to tame that reality with softer or gentler terms defeats the purpose & sells the victim short. I don’t mean to be harsh, but referring to a relationship with a Malignant Narcissist as mere “incompatibility” is like saying Satan is merely misunderstood.

With that I’ll put away my soapbox. Thanks to those who put up with it. To all of those suffering at the hands of these monsters, keep your chin up, as you can see you’re not alone; and to you, Anna, again, many thanks & kudos for what you’re doing here.

GraFXGrl said...

Is it just me or does anyone else feel like with every post and every story that is here on the comments page that you read -pieces of you slowly come together?

After reasding katymarygirotti story about the ring, I think her NM is my NM's twin! I'm going through somthing similar now -after going NC, I keep getting "contact" from NM. Every letter is her "last letter"! Ns are so predictable sometimes!

GraFXGrl said...

m said:
"...to exercise her God-given right to protect herself ..."

Many of us here wish we had known about that right years ago.
I am so glad she did!

nyc_live said...

Katy, I agree if you are genuinely concerned with whether you might be an N, you are not. However, you may have specific learned behaviors from growing up in that environment, and that mightbe what is causing you concern. I know I did. I was not exposed to other ways of being for extended periods pf time until adulthood. But b/c that was not really who I was at the core, I think I have been able to get rid of most of them through self-awareness, self-help books, and therapy. And it's fine to have a few quirks. at the end! It does not make you evil or a narcissist.

krl said...

RE:...."nyc_live said"...

EXACTLY! (for me) Oh, yes...how I suffered and worried when I began recognizing some of the behaviours I had 'taken on', too! And you are so right....it takes a lot of work to start steering your course anew....and to weed that shit out. Thank you for sharing that so simply for me. Each day is its own 'task' and evaluation of self and my behaviours.....not to wallow in introspection but to plot my own course and take an action in the right direction. I am finding to be 'willing' to change requires an action....even if it is the smallest thing in a right direction or behaviour. It seemed daunting in the beginning, but it so much easier and better now. The 'quirks' remain...but I don't 'twitch and tic' as much.

Some great stuff coming through, all.....Thank you so much.

Terry Scoville said...

My older brother is a N. and it has taken me a long time to understand his inability to comprehend my emotions. We lost our parents when we were young. I quit drinking and he has continued, even claims that he quit, but I know better. being the 3 year younger sister he was a bully and berated me endlessly. No matter what I said in attempts to appease him and end the verbal abuse. i limit my contact with him and still grieve for the realization that we will never have a healthy or even close relationship.I am almost 50 and he 53 and still nothing has changed from 30 years ago. I understand he is not capable and this is very sad for me. Thank you for your blog, and sharing your experiences. I am glad to find some light.

nyc_live said...

Terry, about the not drinking...my N father was arrested for spousal abuse and some other offenses recently, and it was in the paper. It listed his first and last name as well as the block he lived on. I was able to verify this through public records. I allow restricted contact (email only), and so when I next heard from him, I mentioned that I understood he had some problem with the law. He said that it did not happen. So the paper said it happen, the sheriff's office said it happened, but I am supposed to believe him? He said they mixed him up with another guy with a different middle name. So that standoff in his house was really another guy with the same first and last name who had coincidentally broken in? With him, reality is nothing, image is everything.

nyc_live said...

krl,

also I noticed a snowball effect in improving my learned behaviors. As I both became more aware of N behavior and less tolerant of having those people in my life, and worked on my own leanred behavior patterns, I attracted fewer Ns in my life and began to attract more genuinely nice people. I was able to notice when they behaved in a way that made me feel good, and learn to imitate those behaviors. Growing up in an N house, socially positive behavior on my part usually brought some form of punishment, as it was labeled manipulative, phony, or weak. So I was taught not to give, not to volunteer help, not to invite people to things or initiate social contact, not to compliment people, etc. Now that I have learned to do those things, I have drawn even more nice people into my life, and now most of the behavior I see in those close to me is more or less pleasant and normal. I still feel a little scared sometimes when I invite someone to do something, or tell someone I like their outfit, but I feel connected now to my natural impulse to do that rather than having to calculate it the way I did at first.

Terry Scoville said...

Nyc, you are so right about image. My brother lies and when I "call him" on it , it infuriates him. Its as if the truth and reality of life are not potent enough. Wow, life is plenty just as it for me w/out "grandeurizizing" it. he has 2 young kids now and I feel for them. His wife is 30 yrs. younger with a PH.D and he 2 masters degrees. That must irritate him! We live in different states and for this I am very thankful. Although he continues to try to keep me under his thumb, I limit emails and phone contact. I need to try to better protect myself and not be so affected by him. It is so hard sometimes. Any suggestions are welcome.

nyc_live said...

Terry,

I went nc on my N father for a while after my mother died. When I did that, I sent him an email explaining what would have to happen if he wanted to have communication from me again. After a while, I was able to clarify for myself what boundaries I could live with, and I began to respond to his emails. I still do not call him and I do not pick up phone calls that say Unavailable or Private Name n Caller ID, and I will not visit him in person. I had to reach a place, though, where I could have some contact with him without him actually affecting my life, and where I could be confident about where that line was. And I couldn't find that while allowing any contact.

I don't know if that is advice, really, but it is what I did. And I ignore lies, which seems to help. Like this arrest lie, I didn't say "That's a lie" because then I'd be attacked for snooping and for not being respectful, and if I agreed then I would be rewarding the lie. So I just did not respond to that email.

toni said...

Oh, the chicken eaters. I imagine many people wouldn't even believe it unless they experience it. It is not about them wanting the chicken, for sure.

There was an N who tried to sabotage a family inheritance, not to steal it, but to try to make sure it wasn't there for anyone else. He would never do something he considered so immoral as trying to get it himself. And it would show what he is. So the N would give up his equal portion just so no one else could have theirs, including the disabled heir.

There is nothing to call it but evil.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Tried to? Sounds like he didn't succeed.

Either way, people like him are the same ones who whine about how no one wants anything to do with them.

Anonymous said...

ALL NARCISSISTS SUCK !!

krl said...

RE: toni said: Nov. 1, 2008 3:18pm

This reminds me of the Bible story of the Wisdom of King Solomon (sorry, I don't know where it is in the Bible..) about the two mothers who each had infants One of the mothers rolled over on her baby in the middle of the night, smothering it to death. She quickly exchanged her dead infant for the other woman's living one, claiming it as her own. The two mothers were brought before King Solomon to make a judgement as to who the baby belonged to since both were claiming it. King Solomon, in his reknowned wisdom, told a soldier to cut the baby in two and give each mother a half of the child. The evil, lying mother agreed to this but the REAL mother screamed to let the infant live and to give it to the lying mother rather than to kill it. King Solomon then knew who the REAL mother was and gave her back her baby.

Yup.....Ns would rather that NO ONE had anything if they can't have it all to themselves. SelfishEvilBullshit.

Kathleen said...

Thank you so very much for your blog and for refusing to keep an N's behavior "secret." Your pain and insight has helped me tremendously.

I come from a large, emotionally-healthy, loving family. I married a wonderful, giving, loving man. Sometimes he was "over-mushy"! I didn't understand when he would tell me that it wasn't until he married me and met my family that he didn't know what love and family meant. What an odd thing to say! He was one of five, and his family lived a distance from us. Our interactions with them were limited and few.
But as time went on, each visit became a source of pain and confusion for me. Although my husband was successful, his siblings were ALL dysfunctional. His father obviously thought very highly of himself and I had to listen to his grandiose stories ad nauseam. So what. We only saw them once a year. I tolerated their mistreatment and my husband was very confused. He would say "I don't know why they treat you like that." My husband left home when he was 19 years old. At the time, his father worked 2 jobs so he was rarely home to be "dad." This was a blessing!! The other children were home longer and dad no longer had to work 2 jobs -- THEY were raised by an N dad.

All of this came to a head when my husband was diagnosed, at age 47, with cancer.

It was all about THEM.
They came and stayed when we asked them to wait. His N father actually yelled at me when I said they COULD NOT COME the night of my daughter's senior prom -- I had to disconnect my husband from chemo, and do all the things a mom has to do when a daughter is going to a prom.
He yelled at me and they drove up and his father sat on my couch and said "We know you're busy. We'll wait for our dinner."

This mistreatment had been going on for years, but I never saw such appalling behavior as his family exhibited when my husband was dying. I could tell stories about their selfishness that would sound unbelievable.

The pain dished out to me and my two children, HIS two children (18and 12) would make a good novel. After I cut them off (with the blessings of my children), I was then baraged with nasty emails from one sister-in-law who told me "well, no one in our family ever liked you anyway."

Now emails are blocked.

I never knew NPD before. I am convinced my father-in-law is an N. I do not say that lightly.

And I am also convinced that if my husband knew then what I know now, he'd back me up 110%.

It's so wonderful for me to read your blogs and know I am NOT responsible for other people's behaviors. They have mistreated me for years, but when they continued to be demanding and selfish while I was losing my husband was just over the line.

Adios, In Laws!!

Anonymous said...

If evil has a real name it's narcissist.

My financial well being, physical and psychological health, my relationship with my son, my friends, every good thing I had in life went down the tubes in five short years after a life time of stability. How does a narcissist do this? They are vampires of the soul.

What's worse is you the victim will be blamed and the by standers will comfort the narcissist.

The only thing to do is to get far, far away and stay away. You can feel pity, you can mourn but, you do it from afar.

Narcissists spread evil weather or not they are evil incarnate. They cause pain, they blood suck everything good out of your life and there are life long consequences IF you survive...the longer you stay the less likely that survival is.

My thyroid totally shut down from stress...because of that I have other life long health issues. But i am ALIVE and I am free and getting my self esteem back. It will be much longer to heal old relationships if I ever can and longer than that getting my finances sorted.

They never realize or care about the damage because THEY don't feel it. It's such a lack of empathy that will only lead them to do more of the same.

Anonymous said...

anonymous nov3 10:36 pm, I relate to what you said. I went through 3 years of hell with n family. Its like the rug was swept under me.At that time, I lost so-called friends and dealt with a n friend. The people at church were a joke. We had just moved and I was also having health problems. The stress was unbelieveable and taking a toll. They didn`t care about the pain that they were causing my family.Their lack of empathy and cold heartedness was unbelieveable. When I decided enough was enough, I had to grieve that loss and other so- called friends. I should also say that we were not only dealing with my n family but my dh`s too.My dh`s n mom came to his place of work a couple of times, sending letters, yelling at him on the phone, etc,etc.It was pure hell. I`ll never let those Ba....ds do that again to my family. The crazy thing about all of this is that I`m the one to blame for it all, not them. That`s so messed up.

Anonymous said...

"What's worse is you the victim will be blamed and the by standers will comfort the narcissist."

To me, this is the most painful part of being played by an N. The ugly realization that the N has been campaigning for sympathy behind your back by casting you as the villain in an imaginary mini-drama. Watching so-called friends and family rally around the liar while giving you the deep freeze is like being kicked in the stomach. I don't think it's an overstatement to call this behavior evil.

Anonymous said...

I am so very grateful that my interactions with my N in-laws were few and far between. I read the blog and the comments, and I'm stunned.
My in-laws inflcited so much pain on me and my children as we watched the love of my life die. He passed away 3 days after his 49th birthday. But I have been blessed -- he was wonderful.

I am able now, almost a year since the cut off, to look back on 2 things and actually laugh a bit (I find nothing humerous about other things they said and did).

My husband lived 15 months after his diagnosis. About midway his father called and announced to me "Guess what?! I have cancer too!!" I was shocked -- his tone of voice was what an exuberant 10-year-old wouls use when announcing an A in math! I was hesitant (and worried) when I asked what happened.

FIL: I have a melanoma on my nose!!

After that, I started receiving emailed PICTURES OF HIS NOSE!! I kid you not. I even got a pic of all the bandages when this tumor was removed. Must have been 1/4 the size of a pea, but you'd think the man had a 15 pound growth removed from his probiscus.

After the funeral for my beloved, his dad called to say they had arrived home safely (like I cared at that point?). Again, the same exuberant 10-year-old.

FIL: Guess what??!! When we got home one of our neighbors sent us a meal because we lost our son and traveled so far.

ME: Oh, that was nice of them.

FIL: Yeah. Donald said YOU and HIM gor meals from the church and neighbors when he was sick. Now we got one too!!

He was actually competing with his dying son. Sick, sick, sick.

A lot of pain in a short time. I simply cannot fathom what all of you have been through being raised in a N-parent home. Boggles my mind.

They are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL. I'm just now starting to let the emotional pain die down.

And if any of them ever email me again (they change yahoo accounts), I think I'll reply with that youtube video of My Give A Damn's Busted!!!

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/narcissiststendtobecomeleaders

Anonymous said...

There's jerks everywhere you go from top to bottom. And there's a difference between having some N traits/N personality style and having NPD.

LS said...

Anna,

I have been reading parts of your blog for many months now and I am quite impressed with your wisdom, strength, candor, and courage. You are so generous and caring toward others who have been harmed by a narcissist. I'm posting now because I suspect my father is a narcissist. I'm convinced my mother has borderline personality disorder.

I am a married, 41 year-old woman with a son who is nearly 16. I have been extremely passive in my dealings with most people ever since childhood. It has caused me great unhappiness. I'm having a lot of trouble getting over my fear of making people angry, but I must do this. Thankfully, I did not marry a narcissistic man, so my family life is happy and healthy. I've gone no contact with my parents. But there is still the matter of dealing with everyone else.

I suspect that my fear of making people angry has a lot to do with my father's rage. He had frequent temper tantrums throughout my entire childhood. He stomped around making the entire house shake, screaming at the top of his lungs. These tantrums were usually leveled at my mother, but I still hated it. At the least, it was a very unpleasant thing for me to endure. I remember being terrified of making him severely angry with me, probably because I was afraid of becoming the object of one of his rages. I held a great deal of anger inside of me. Showing anger towards him or my mother was always risky. He is out of my life now, and I can say with confidence that his rages were EVIL.

About my present situation, I have a person in my life I need to confront. This person has make me the butt of a ridiculous joke, and in my most recent encounter with her, she made an aggressive remark. I deflected it in a manner that I am satisfied with. However, I'm serving on a board with this person; she is the president and I am the secretary. The organization is the parent booster group for my son's high school marching band. I'm certain I can avoid her (and I suspect she is avoiding me) until the next board meeting in 2 weeks from today. I don't know if this person will continue to insult me or not. I'd rather not get into a confrontation in front of others, including this person's husband, but I think there is a possibility of that happening. I think she might use other people around her as protection, assuming that I won't stand up for myself in front of them. I already know that I shouldn't worry what others think about me, but I still lack the kind of self-confidence that I admire so much in you. Here is the problem: if I must stand up to this person, I'm afraid that my fear will show. In the past, during the few times I decided to stand up to my father, my voice and my entire person was visibly shaking. I don't want people to know how scared I am. Just thinking of the possibility of having to stand up to someone causes my chest to tighten and my pulse racing.

I am afraid of letting my fear show. I wish I didn't have this fear, but I do. I've stood up to aggressive people very few times in my life, so I'm hoping this fear will vanish as I become better at it. I don't know what to do. I want to quit the board now, even though my term is not up yet, because my doctor is worried about my blood pressure. She does agree that my borderline high blood pressure could be related to my present situation that I've discribed to you. I have no interest in participating on this board any longer. I think my health should come first, but like I said, I fear making people angry with me.

The president of the board has turned out to be a very self-serving person. She wants everyone to think she has a heart of gold, but I can see that she serves as president of this board because she likes being important. She has a history of taking on leadership roles and not being very good at it. I've discovered recently that she is not well respected by people that I know, respect and admire for their emotional health and fortitude. She loves having attention from everyone around her. I even suspect that she neglects her own health to gain sympathy and attention from everyone. She's probably very insecure, but knowing that does not seem to help boost my own courage. This is a very unhealthy person and I want to have nothing to do with her.

I want to stand up to her, to not worry about what others think of me for quitting the board. I want to be happy and healthy. Every time I think of what I must do, I become afraid. Why am I afraid of letting people see that I'm afraid? I have to make a decision. I need to resign, or I need to finish the 6 months I have left under the condition that 1) she will not be disrespectful and 2) that she accepts that I will come to meetings and take minutes and that is all, I want no furthur involvement than that. Whatever I decide, I'm afraid to break the news to her.

I know that my intense fear of being assertive with people has to do with how I was raised. The intensity of this fear is making me miserable. Even though I'm miserable rigt now, I want to make the best of it and try to learn something important from this experience. Any thoughts or advice from anyone who is willng to give it would be most welcome.

LS

Anonymous said...

KRL, about the story of King Soloman. I laughed when I read the part about the mother rolling over on her baby, I don't think I ever heard that part, just that her baby was dead. Anyhow, that is a perfect example of how we as normal human beings can have our hands tied by Love or Morals. The real mother wanted her baby but her hands were tied in front of King Soloman because she would have rather given away her baby than have it split in two. It seems to me that if my N gets the best of me, it's because my hands have been tied by some Moral principle. She tears through life with wreckless abandon while the people around her are tightly bound by something.
I always likened it to a drag race where me and my N are speeding towards the finish line. Suddenly a baby crawls out onto the track. She will stop at nothing to win so my N doesn't flinch when she sees the baby, if she hits it, she'll claim she didn't see it. So she pushes on at full speed. She knows that I will not only slow down but probably veer clear off the track to avoid THE BABY. Again, they use our morals to their advantage.

Angela\greendaze44 said...

Here is a deflection tactic that my soon-to-be-exN does to me.

I ask him about something he has done or said and he says, "Don't talk to me like that. You are yelling at me." (Even though I am not yelling, but talking strongly.) I say, "I'm not yelling at you, I'm only talking strongly." He says, "Well whatever you want to call it, I don't like the way you are talking to me, you could be nicer you know." I return to the original action and then he says he doesn't want to fight with me. He says I'm not talking nice to him and I just want to fight with him. He NEVER address' the original action that I am trying to talk to him about. It is crazy making!
I come from family of my parents being divorced when I was 5 and both have been married several times. I had step father's and step brother's and step mom's and extended families, so when I married my Nhusband, who came from an intact family, who he called every week, I thought that he knew what a functional family was. That I was the one that was weird. He said he was always the peacemaker in his family, (he has 3 brothers and sisters). I would ask him why he wasn't the peacemaker in "our" family. He said he didn't know.
I finally realized that he is a manipulator and his family lets him get away with it. When I tried to stand up for myself is when the trouble starts.
Here is another tactic. I tell him I was thinking of doing something a certain way and wondered what he thought. If he had a good idea, I would try that. But if I didn't like his idea and I said, I think I'm going to do this, he would say, "Why did you even ask, if you were going to do it your way?" I would say, "I am open to suggestions, but I believe doing it the way I was going to is the best way." His family would all look at me like I was an alien.
I am sooooo glad to be out of that craziness! I left him August of 2007 after 10 years of marriage and I wonder how I stayed so long. We are still not divorced b\c he wants custody of our 10 year old daughter. When we were married for a few years, he had told me that if I ever tried to divorce him, he would quit his job and be a bum before he would give me any money for child support.
He makes 80K a year, I make 28K and he wants custody of our daughter and is "willing to waive child support from me and just take my half of our house as a lump sum payment!!!!!! God, please tell me the judge will see the insanity of this man!!!!! Everything in the divorce decree is about him controlling me and keeping everything he can. He is an engineer, attends church regularly and the people at the church think he's such a wonderful person. The church that "we" attended for 7 years together. I left the church when I left him. He and our daughter still attend there. He has studied the Bible thoroughly and the people at the church look up to him for his knowledge of the Bible. It sickens me. I used to ask him why he couldn't be as nice to me and my daughter from my first marriage, as he was to the people at church. He would say, "I am." He wanted his parents to live with us and I wanted them to live with us to, b\c when they were around he acted so much better. He would actually do things around the house and he was much nicer to us. He always ends up being best friends with the church pastor. It amazes me that these people don't see his behaviour. He told me I'm the only one that thinks of him the way I do. I said, "Let's talk to your first wife, I'm sure she will have the same opinion!" Only people that live with him see his true colors.
He couldn't even see his daughter from his first marriage without supervision, yet now he is "Super Dad"? HA! He just got better at being an N and hiding his craziness.
I'm getting much better at staying focused on what ever the subject is rather than going down another road when he tries to lead me there. Everyday I learn and grow.

Sunset said...

One personal favorite of mine:

She's going on about how bad I am at communicating and she never knows what I need because I never say anything clearly. I point out that I don't have problems communicating with other people - in fact it's one of my better skills. She immediately starts talking about how that's due to the many hours that she spent teaching me how to be clear, completely ignoring that she was just criticizing me for not being able to communicate! Upon having this inconsistency pointed out, she claimed that my communications with others weren't the same kind as my ones with her. This went on for a few minutes until I finally gave up.

I've learned to carefully filter what I tell her (I still live at home - I don't have enough money to move out yet. With college I don't actually see her other than around holidays; I work at my college over the summer so I only have two weeks to visit her.) I make sure she can take credit for anything I do (I'm an only child, and I was a bit of the "golden child" - great until you actually want a life of your own). It's kind of amusing, actually. There's very clear evidence that I'm not doing everything her way, but "her daughter would never do a thing like that!" I don't really even have to hide anything from her - if it doesn't fit her world, she'll blatantly ignore it!

Anna Valerious said...

LS,

I well understand the fear that accompanies standing up to someone who is a bully or abusive. I feel it too. I also understand your desire to not show your fear. You know instinctively that showing fear is like blood in the water when the sharks are around. It can be an invitation for a more vicious attack. What the predator doesn't know, though, it that you're not just a bleeding victim. If you know in your gut that you would not allow yourself to get bull-dozed even if you're shaking like a leaf then you'll likely surprise the predator when you hit back. Most predators don't stick around if their prey starts biting back.

It really is up to your whether or not you resign now or later, or resign in person or in writing. From your description of the situation I try to imagine what my course of action would be. Likely, given that we're only talking about a board for a booster group, there is really no need to make a public stand of confrontation. It isn't like there is a greater moral cause you'd be letting down by slipping away. Me? I'd be thinking "screw this shit" and would write a letter and mail it to ALL the board members resigning immediately. I wouldn't bother to attend one more meeting. I wouldn't willingly put myself in a position where this person could make mincemeat out of me in front of curious and complicit bystanders. Why the hell not just resign in writing? Somehow the world will still revolve on its axis if you don't serve another six months on a booster group's board for a marching band. Oy vey. I would not think it cowardly to write a letter of resignation effective immediately. Life is too short to try to reason with or get along with the unreasonable and self-serving.

Where I would encourage a face-to-face and a proclamation of your stand on an issue is if it is necessary in order to defend someone else or to defend a moral cause. If by staying silent you are complicit in the continued abuse of the helpless and defenseless (which the other members of the board are not) then our silence looks like condoning behavior. In that kind of situation it is imperative to make a clear and visible stand against the wrong. No one is forced to serve on that board. They are autonomous adults. Each is entitled to make a decision to leave...just like you. So this is why I don't think it would be necessary to stick around in this situation or to resign in a way that would open you up to a face-to-face attack.

Hope this helps.

Holland said...

Dear Anna,
I have no words to express how happy I am that I found your blog. My life was marked by a N-mom, a co-dependent dad, and an N-sis. And it is truly amazing how much all your stories look like my life.

My mom is SO EVIL. It's hard to tell a consistant story about all the horror I endured with this egg-donor.

About 4 years ago I asked my Nfamily for 'radio silence' since my husband and I were on the brink of a devorce. Since that what not what Nm desired she started to terrorize me (I hurt her with something - whatever it was)and started an extreme tantrum (my dad got hart problems, my dear sis said that I would be responsible if our dad would die and my egg donor stated that I was the lowest of the lowest, nobody on earth could sink as low as I was. What the hell I did is still unknown, but I can deduct now that a devorce was not something my egg donor had in mind. The trouble in my family was not of her interest. Just her wants. No radio silence was given. All her N-sisters jumped in to get me in line with her wishes. Her remark about my value learned me that I would NEVER do it right and decided that she had to wait and first I had to do everything to save my marriage. That we did! Thank God! And the best thing was that I kept the Nfamily out of our lives.

As a child I started to wonder why I was so bad, after some time I knew I was bad, but wondered why I could not see what was wrong with me. As a approx. 12 year old I wanted to jump out of our (3rd floor)appartment, but didn't do it because I was so terrified of the possibility that I would NOT die and would be terrorized by my mom for giving her so much trouble.
We (my sister and I) got food that was gone bad (she ate later with dad) and forced us to eat it. Since her wrath was so terrifying, we for sure ate it. (To know who was in charge!)
She disapproved of all my friends throughout my life, even my husband to be (who became my husband) and tried to get him rid of him (by hands of the secr.serv. of the eastern european country he is from)(So she could keep me available as her standard scapegoat).
We (sis and I)had to take care of her problems. We had to listen to all her adult compaining about all kind of people and wrong doings to her. (Being her caretaker).
She never respected anything of me of my family. And when I stood up to her and my sister when I did not accept my oldest son to become the next scapegoat of the Nfamily, N-everybody was so mad at me! But I stuck to my guns.
I could protect my children but have never learned to protect myself. Now that so much became clear (we sorted out our problems my husband and me), we truly have a happy family (husband, sons and me).
The biggest nightmare is to get in contact with them again.

After reading about 2 meters of books about NPD and these kind of things I could understand mentally that I could not deal with them ever again. But emotionally I still could not handle it. The burden of guilt is so big. And now, this week, I found your blog. This is the first time that I read something about the real life situations in which we, children of Ns, are. Still I am reading your blog, but for sure this is the best help I could wish for!!!!! It is as I am finally getting my life. (Not getting it back, but GETTING IT). I will keep on reading, and reading. Thank God that you passes this along Anna. I am truly gratefull.
(Since English is not my language, I hope I did not make sentences that do not make sense.)

And finally I would like to ask you all a question. My sister, that became N too, was a baby that cried, cried and cried from the moment she came out, until she was about 2 years old. My mom stated once she wanted to hit my sis on the head with a bottle to get her quiet.
When I was born (1,5 years later)I was a baby you only can dream of. Smiling, sleeping, quiet.
Since my sis became N and never got moms 'loving'attention as a baby. I was as sweet as a doll, mom proud, showing me around and I got moms 'loving'attention.
I thought maybe there is a link.
Do you recognize these situations?

God bless you all!
Love from Holland

Anonymous said...

The stories that have come out with this one post are important. Something has struck a chord. The truth isn't out here; it's here.

Anonymous said...

The more stories posters tell about the N's in their lives, I see how similar the behavior displayed by my N is in comparison. The constant need for attention, the competitiveness, the backstabbing, the lying, the contradictions, the twisted perception of reality, the heartbreaking cruelty (especially in the instances of an N-parent).

What is wonderful, is making the connection that these folks are not normal, that we are not crazy, and that other posters have experienced the same set of behaviors. Even better is to hear stories of ending contact, like Kathleen's. I wish good things for her and her children.

So thanks fellow posters, and thank you Anna.

LS said...

Thanks Anna, you did help. I have resigned. I told my plan to the reasonable members of the board first, since I did not want them to think they had anything to do with my leaving. They understand why I have to leave. These healthy board members shared stories with me that indicate their growing anger and annoyance with the trouble-makers, but where they can roll their eyes and tell themselves things will get better in 6 months, I can not.

I decided to call the president and say I'm resigning for health reasons, which is true. She acted like she was concerned for me, saying she will pray for me and blah, blah, blah...did she mean any of it? I don't know and don't care. She can continue to mock me behind my back if it amuses her, it won't hurt me if I'm not there to hear it.

The reason I decided to speak with her personally is because I can't avoid her completely in the future, since our kids are in the band together for another 6 months, and I didn't want to provoke her, if I could help it. If I never had to see her again, I would have sent her a letter and not even bothered to smooth things over with her. She did ask me if she had done something to offend me, but I evaded the question. I have no desire to point out her faults to her. I can't change her, and she's no longer my problem.

She did ask me to send her an email of resignation, which I will do. I will take your advise and send copies to the rest of the board as well.

I am feeling so much better, as though a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Thank you for your advise! I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions. I'm going to continue to visit your blog regularly, since it's obvious I have lots more healing to do! Thanks again and again,

LS

Anna Valerious said...

LS,

I'm so happy to hear that you've resigned and have gotten this burden off of your mind and body. It sounds like you handled it perfectly. I can certainly understand why you told her face to face of your decision. Wise move to not answer her question about whether she offended you. It would have produced nothing good and likely would have given her much fodder for future trashing of you had you in any way implied she was the problem.

Congrats on getting out from under this weight. Take care!

Stephanie said...

Hi Anna---

I'm new to posting here although I've been reading your blog for a few weeks now. WOW, we have such similar backgrounds. I have a NMom and NSister. I'm in the middle of finding some kind of peace.

I will be around but wanted to say thank you. Your story speaks to me, this site speaks to me!!! I am NOT alone.

Stephanie

Laura Kamienski said...

I was raped when I was fourteen, but that was a day in the park compared to the destruction of my soul experienced in a relationship with a narcissist. Calling them evil is kind IMO. Laura

Allie said...

Holy crow, you said it, Anna!

I often hesitate to tell others that my mother is evil. Society tells us that we are supposed to love our mothers, that our mothers are good, caring, etc. and all those other preconceived notions of mothers that we, as a society hold.

When people ask why I don't talk to my mother, it's just too long of an explanation and they don't understand. People don't understand that she can be quite toxic to be around -- that she rips my spirit to shreds and steps on everything upon which I've worked so hard to build my life. Too much to cite all examples and, I imagine, would be too depressing to tell people about. I'm working hard to move in a more positive direction and my mother just won't allow me to do that -- do I then continue on a relationship where I allow her to kick the crap out of me? She's done this my whole life and it wasn't until I stopped talking to her that I could get a sense of self and to have some resemblance of a normal life without all the abuse.

When I tell people that my mother is evil, people make it sound like I'm uncaring and heartless for thinking that about my mother but, I tell you, it hurts me to acknowledge that she is evil. I see so many people around me with supportive, loving mothers and I would love to have that but my mother is anything but supportive and loving. Everything is done because she tries to destroy my happiness, tries to take away anything that makes me happy, tries to trivialize anything that I work hard towards.

Thank you for posting this and giving me the resolve to call a spade a spade.

Anonymous said...

"It is the fault of the narcissist that they are predatory, cruel, hateful, insatiably coveteous of what you have, and emotionally arrested. I will call evil what it is".

I can't agree with this statement in that it implies narcissists chose to be the way they are. When did they choose this, and "who" was it that made the choice on whether to become a narcissist or a quote "normal" human being?? I think it's an inquiry worth looking at.

Anna Valerious said...

I wasn't implying anything. This blog's position is that they choose to be what they are. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim. I have inquired. My experience with narcissists is extensive. This statement stands. My blog provides the support for that statement. If you want to believe they are mere victims of circumstance go right ahead. No one can stop you.

Anonymous said...

Ew..Ock...OMG, I'm choking!

"What's worse is you the victim will be blamed and the by standers will comfort the narcissist."

To me, this is the most painful part of being played by an N. The ugly realization that the N has been campaigning for sympathy behind your back by casting you as the villain in an imaginary mini-drama. Watching so-called friends and family rally around the liar while giving you the deep freeze is like being kicked in the stomach. I don't think it's an overstatement to call this behavior evil."

I've lost everything, a daughter, all my money...it just goes on. Yet the idea that people, friends, family members, cater to him and his needs, and turn their back on me like I'm the crazy one is just one big cosmic mindf**k, a tragedy of epic proportions. I've never seen a scarier movie then the one I've lived with this NH!

Help! I'm drowning!

Anonymous said...

You're not going to drown. You're going to set your boundaries and stick to them. Someone once told me that if you keep your mouth shut when someone else is embroiling you in their drama, after a while people start to notice that the noise only comes from one place. That's what I've done. Kept my boundaries clear and my mouth shut and lo, people are starting to notice my NM has a lot to say and nothing to back it up with. Whereas I just smile and nod and change the subject. My other family members are starting to see that she's full of hot air and I'm moving on. I'll tell you - she is full of frustrated rage because she cannot get a rise out of me. I can honestly say this is self preservation, but i think I'm allowed to admit that keeping the fuel from her fire enrages her and amuses me. Folks will come around. You'll see. My father suffered at the hands of my NM for years (they're divorced). She told us he had abducted us as children...not until our twenties did we ask my Dad what had happened. In all that time he never spoke out against her. He told us the truth only when we asked. Now, my mother is alone and three out of four of her children live within a kilometre of her ex-husband. He got us all back. Hang in there. Be pig-headed. Remember, he wants you to drown; don't give him the satisfaction. Flourish instead. Defy evil.