Wednesday, October 08, 2008

The Perennial Question...Are Narcissists Evil?

A couple weeks ago when I was looking at various Vaknin statements I ran into, yet again, his argument that it is wrong to think of and describe narcissists as being evil. I saw that others make the same argument based on the (supposed) lack of intention to do evil absolving the narcissist from being evil. At the same time, these apologists for narcissists like to denigrate the intellect of those who think in terms of good and evil, black and white. So I'll return the favor...they have shit for brains.

It makes me a little crazy to read CRAP like this. I decided I would probably blog on this whole argument after I felt I was composed enough to have to deal point by point with the insanity.

I don't have to write it because someone else did. It can be found here. There is probably much more I could say on the subject than this article does but it is good place to start for now.

45 comments:

thestranger said...

I've always thought of NPD in terms of mental illness than a thing of good and evil, but I suppose it all depends on your perception. I always thought of it in terms of this how all people would behave when they lack empathy, such as in the cases of a traumatic brain injury. Thats a good article you shared and gives me a lot to think about. I spent a lot of time debating whether or not my ex partner was evil, and tended to handle it all better when I just recognized the behavior was abusive. I don't see any problem who sees it all from a perspective of evil.

Anna Valerious said...

Interestingly, psychology does not classify NPD as a mental illness. They classify it as a personality disorder/character disorder which they differentiate from mental illnesses.

Malignant narcissists do not deserve the disclaimer of being "ill". It does a disservice to those who actually do have organic brain injuries and defects over which they have/had no control.

The MN is his own creation. He should get all the credit for what he has become.

Anonymous said...

Grrr, it makes me so mad that Narcissists get labelled as "ill" or even "disordered". Evil is as evil does and that's what the Narcissist is! Why is it so hard for people to accept that evil exists!! If society wasn't in denial about this the Narcissists wouldn't be able to survive and thrive. People just don't want to upset their cushy little worlds of sunshine and lolipops.

It seems the only way that good sense ever gets knocked in to people is from experiencing the devastating effects of a Narcissist first hand.

Nymphadora Lupin said...

"...some of us must do battle with a force that wants to destroy us"
Exactly right.

Hi Anna! It's me! I truly haven't fallen off the face of the Earth, I promise!! (Smile)

I felt moved to respond to your post because, in the end, I found that understanding the true nature of what I was dealing with reminded me not to give the benefit of the doubt, not to endlessly forgive and look for the good in the situation, *and thereby continually going back and allowing myself to be re-abused*.

The concept that evil can be defined as a force that wants to destroy us, as the article you linked to suggested (great article, by the way), showed me EXACTLY what my mother's BEHAVIOR was doing. In her mind, she's a great mother, and we have a great family - there is a terrible disconnect between how she THINKS ABOUT things and how SHE BEHAVES. She never sees how her behavior and attitude create terrible hardship in those around her. To define her behavior as "that which seeks to destroy" allows me, as the article says "to come to terms (have a name for) what is really going on. This flies in the face of the official "myth" of the family, that we have a great family and a great childhood and a wonderful mother. It helps me hold on to my own reality.

Anyway, God Bless. I'm thinking about you even when I don't write.

Anonymous said...

When I realized that my ex-friend was a narcissist, I was horrified to discover that he did what he did not because he couldn't help it, but because he wanted to. He hurt me (and others) deliberately.

He schemed, gossiped, and lied. He never owned up to any bad behavior, never apologized, had zero empathy for anyone, and took a sick delight in other's misfortune. When you intentionally harm your friends and family by maligning their character, it's evil.

yes, i'm angry.. said...

great post, anna.

it's amazing how narcissists don't believe ANY one should be considered evil, unless it's one of their "victims" who fight back.

in the words of my monster in law, "it's just the evil in [me] fighting the Christ within [her]."

and especially in the words of my blister in law, ".. by first taking note of certain negative personality traits, you can then easily judge people with those qualities as unequivocally evil. how simple this makes life for you! no longer must you learn to accept people for who they are, as individuals entitled to their own opinions, and accountable only to God where judgment is concerned." (her mocking a book that she knew i read about discerning and defeating the jezebel spirit.)

thanks, anna, for all that you have helped me with.

h.

Anonymous said...

They want to destroy us...I think that sums it up. I refused to give my mom her N supply and so she made me pay. It was like all her children were in a swimming race and she was at the finish line. I always felt like when I reached the edge she took her foot and pushed me under water so,
a.) I wouldn't beat the others
b.) I wouldn't finish.

I wouldn't finish because she could stand there all day with me under water, long after anyone remembered there was a race. It didn't happen, it's just how I feel my childhood was. She has always wanted me to fail, it makes her feel good. She is not ill, just ask her.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Well, if they have malicious intent, ill will, takes pleasure in deliberately causing suffering/misery/whatever by any means necessary, then yes, they would be no matter what "label" they have as PD. Even mental illness isn't an excuse.

Course no one admits to being evil because it's simply not a smart move, unless they just don't care who knows.

Evil is a chosen belief system more than anything.

Naive No Longer said...

"Evil leaves its mark at the cellular level. There is a physiology to evil. Cells are imprinted at the moment terror engulfs us. Brain cells are destroyed by stress and facing evil is neverending stress. The body never leaves flight or fight mode. Children silently suffer the slings and arrows of the narcissistic parent who is unable to care. What happens to the child is of no concern to the narcissist, he must prevail no matter the cost. The child as collateral damage is unimportant. Winning is everything."

Wow, if this doesn't describe how my mother got into every cell of my body I don't know what does. It is evil. It matters not what anyone else says. IT IS EVIL. I have not only had to climb out of an emotional and psychological pit, but am now bearing the repurcussions of what is described in the paragraph above in my physical body as well. The evil infiltrates every aspect of your being and will seek to destroy you if you stay in it, yet will seek to destroy you as you extricate yourself from its evil pinions as well. I thank God that I have made it out wounded but sane and am on the rebound physically as well. SHE DID NOT ULTIMATELY WIN. Funny thing is, she will NEVER give up the delusion that she has won. HA!

She still presents herself as a "good" mother and has those surrounding her who still choose to remain her supply-source convinced of such. Woe to those who call good evil and evil good . . .

Why are people so afraid to name it for what it is? There is a certain freedom, healing, and rightness that comes with allowing yourself to see the truth of it. Your mother (or whomever) is an evil monster who twists people's brains into believing otherwise.

krl said...

".. She is not ill, just ask her.."

Hahahahaaaaa. This just cracked me up! No shit. Yeah...even slightly, roundaboutly, sugggeeesssttt that they 'might be ill'. OMG! (I did that once...just to give Nmom the benefit of the doubt...ugh) No. By God...."the WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD is crazy....and ESPECIALLY your FATHER!" I tippy-toed away on that one and within 24hrs. found this blog. Yeah....they won't even accept being mentally ill as an 'excuse' for their behaviour. What behaviour?

Thanks. Yes. I had read the website a few months ago...since I like Peck....and especially the book "People of the Lie." Good stuff.

Anonymous said...

Now I've heard on this blog a distinction between malignant narcissism and non-malignant narcissism. Malignant narcissism is the one that is evil right?

st said...

Good summer break, Anna... you're back in force! Your logic cheers me no end!

..."they have shit for brains!"

Hahahahaha! It's funny how funny it is, once I begin to see through some of 'their logic!' Oh~ spotted a twist! Oh~ false guilt! Oh, your answer to my question is to attack me? Hahahahaha! GOTCHA!

krl said...

I've said this before in comments I've posted...and I'll say it again: The marks that Evil leaves on a person's life is directly proportionate to the nature of Evil itself. Over the decades of my life, I have scrutinized what hurt me, when did it hurt me, how did it hurt me...and are there 'lasting manifestations'? I have lived a 'seasoned' life....not cloistered, not protected, and 'out there where it hurts to learn'. I KNOW the difference between the 'normal' things that hurt...or were disappointing...or embarrassing...or emotionally painful. I understand simple 'loss'. Eventually, you just 'get over' the 'normal' things. Evil, however, leaves a damage and manifestation in your BEING....I don't 'just get over it'. (It doesn't mean the damage won't be lessened as time goes by...) But the effects of EVIL leave track in your BEING. A kind of 'haunting', if you will....THAT's how I now know there is...and was...EVIL in the works....not just 'bad things that happen to good people.' Discerning the difference....not just lumping all the 'things that happened' together....sorting out the difference...naming the difference...has helped me some. Not having those influences 'in my face'...has helped more.

EVIL is not 'normal'....it does not cause 'normal' problems that one 'just gets over'. Naming it is the first step....getting away from it is the next step...and moving on in whatever function and capacity you have in as 'normal' a way as possible...is the next one. Some of you have more life tools and education to continue life in better strides...some of us can do with what we have in a more limited manner....but still with hope and strength and integrity that we can live with. Do it. Don't 'stall'...just move forward in the 'next right thing'. No matter how damaged, especially on any given day....at least do that. One thing.

In short....Narcissists ARE Evil. Evil DOES exist. It IS real. If you don't believe it...ask yourself why you are SO 'damaged'? Not just 'hurt'...or 'set back'...etc. like SOME things that happened to you. The 'haunting damage' is directly proportionate to the affects of Evil in your life. Sort 'em out. Name 'em. Get rid of 'em. Do it each and every time 'it' comes around. (The 'haunting'....sorry....I use that term because that's what it feels like rather that like some spook movie. Not into that stuff.)

Anonymous said...

I see them as evil. They don`t have a concience like normal people.The problem with most psychology is that there is no proof in most of the things that they say. It all comes from human intellect not God`s word.Humans are fallable creatures and don`t have the compasity to really know the full extent of our falleness. It is true arrogance of a human to assume " they know" because of their human knowledge that they`ve aquired. Unfortunately, the majority of society will get on the band wagon with most of these people because of their own falleness and not wanting to worship the true Creator but to want to worship man and their intellect. The Word of God is the bases for everything.

Anonymous said...

Krl @ 9:22am,

What you wrote is incredibly powerful. I can relate to being "Out there where it hurts to learn" and experiencing normal things that hurt versus the destructive effects of evil. Being "out there" and away from my EVIL family showed me the difference between normal hurts and the infliction of evil. And yes, evil is a potent poison and it is near impossible to fully detox from it.

I can distinguish the evil in my life by its long term effects on my nervous system. I trembled until my late thirties, I've been diagnosed with PTSD (no surprise) and my body is still in a perpetual fight or flight mode. Memories of evil I can feel physically. Evil is a parasitic energy that takes hold of a person on every level. Normal hurts don't continue to live on in the body.

Anna Valerious said...

To the person out there who is trying to submit links to prove that my current post is bunk I have a link for you.

You tried to use a link to a Kathy Krajco blog post to pretend she asserts that only psychiatrists are qualified to diagnose NPD. You missed her main point in that post which was that most people (including social workers) don't understand the distinctions between narcissistic traits and destructive, predatory malignant narcissism and therefore have no business handing out diagnoses for NPD. Most people think NPD is just a big fat case of being stuck on yourself. That is NOT NPD. The "snobby debutante", as Kathy puts it, is likely not someone with NPD, but the uninformed would easily call her that while missing the real malignant narcissist under their nose.

Here is one of MANY statements she makes about who the real experts in NPD are:

But the so-called experts cannot seem to get it through their thick heads that there is a fundamental difference between fighting others and eating them – between fighting and predation. Though they Play Pretend that they are the only ones qualified to express an opinion on the matter, they are actually the least knowledgable and qualified, because they know nothing but what they have read in speculative essays by others just as ignorant and whatever lines narcissists on their couches have fed these collective speculators. Both individually and collectively they have almost no experience with real narcissists, let alone any real-world experience with them. And they haven't even solicited information from victims of narcissists. So, how could they possibly know what they are talking about?

Trust your own observations. Reason from facts to conclusions, not backwards, and you will learn what you need to know.


http://tinyurl.com/5xlvhr

She iterates this position many, many times in her blog and book. This is her true position on the point of who is qualified to know what a predatory narcissist is. Don't use Kathy to contradict Kathy. It won't work here as I know her positions on NPD.

Wiki answers as an authoritative source on NPD and anti-social behavior? Get real.

Now, bug off.

Katrina said...

Anna,

"Don't use Kathy to contradict Kathy"....

WOW!! Only those of us who have lived our lives having our words & their meanings twisted inside out like a dirty rag could spot THAT for what it is, with such clarity.

Good call! They just never quit, do they? Katrina

Anonymous said...

Anna luv your spunk!! KRL great comment, and yes, very powerful!
The very first step is naming it. When I realized "EVIL" was the synonym, healing began. Thank God!

Anonymous said...

Anna, What was the user's original post?

Anna Valerious said...

I dumped them. I didn't intend to respond...then changed my mind. They know who they are. They did not post any comment. They just were putting links in. I will look in my history and provide the links if you'd like.

Anna Valerious said...

These are the links:

http://tinyurl.com/277wjp

http://tinyurl.com/4nnd8u

Kelly said...

Anna, great article!!!!

Jordie said...

Anna,

I appreciate having read the comments here about people recovering from the effects of evil.

I was wondering Anna, if you could possibly discuss how you have moved on in respect to the effects of Narcissism. How do you find yourself relating to other people's bad behaviour, even if it isn't based in Narcissism?

I am only asking because four years on from leaving a religious group run by a narcissist, and fifteen months on from cutting off my mother and sisters, I seem to be battling more than ever with issues relating to dealing with other people.

I find I have absolutely no tolerance for BS from others, especially those professing to be christians, who then treat me with disrespect. Then, I feel guilty that I haven't given them a second chance. I have spent hours trying to explain that putting up with offensive behaviour from others isn't 'love', its passive-aggression (in a lot of cases). I just get these zombified looks, and I feel like a complete heel because I am not the 'nice' christian who just puts out, and keeps putting out like everyone else.

I am just wondering if like one poster, I am being haunted by the original evil, or whether this is just a by-product of adjusting to the 'real world'.

Any thoughts on recovery, and adjusting to 'normal' life after a narcissist would be appreciated.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jordie
I've been experiencing very similar scenarios, however lately I keep an arms length from "churchy" Christians and I rarely feel guilty not giving them a second chance. I'm extremely careful in choosing relationships and/or discussing the intricasies of passive/aggressive, let alone the subject of narcissism. But, I certainly relate to ZERO tolerance &BS!! I find this new part of me to be very refreshing..I think it's also called FREEDOM!! But Anna, am I too far on the other end of this continuum, or is it all part of the journey to balance?

Barbara said...

This quote below from one of Vaknin's numerous sites (it's like a huge web of his blathering and victims can't help but trip over them on the net) really turned me off to him forever.

In his own words:

'There is nothing to be learned from the answers to these questions because each individual has her own threshold. No, I simply enjoy the momentary ability to inflict traumatic pain (emotional pain - I am not the physical type and will never harm a woman physically). It is as close as I can get to omnipotence. It is the perfect gender revenge.'.......

'As a Jew I would have done the same to Nazis. As a victim of a woman, I celebrate with unrestrained glee my ability to degrade women, to humiliate them, to frustrate them, to make them beg for life itself, for they see their (often imagined) relationship with me as life itself. This is why I abstain from sex. This is why I dazzle them with my intellect and charm and wit and knowledge, with unprecedented intrusive interest in their petty, boring, housewivish lives - and then I let go abruptly. At this stage, they are so brittle, so vulnerable that they crash to a million shreds with the crystalline sound of agony.'


So now we know the REAL reason for those forums where he talks down to hurting victims. He's said it himself. Now we just have to take heed and realize there's no such thing as a HELPFUL, SELF-AWARE NARCISSIST!

Anna Valerious said...

Vaknin's statement that you quote surely blows to shit his contention that narcissists can't be evil because they don't intend harm. There he is, confessing to a substantial load of malicious intent toward women. He reveals his predatory and evil nature to full view in that statement. Obviously, he is shameless. More than that, he sounds rather proud of himself.

Anonymous said...

Jordie, Ive been going through the same thing. I use to give people the benefit of the doubt but over and over again they would prove themseleves. I don`t do that anymore and I don`t feel guilty about it.I don`t like dealing with most Christians anymore because of their self-rightous and mean behavior.Unfortunately, it is accepted in the church and we are suppose to deal with that person because that`s how we love them. Like you said, that`s not love.I had one stupid pastor tell me that I should take it(from my family) because Jesus took it.

Anonymous said...

Check out Annas post on Sept 02,2006 if you haven't already.

Anonymous said...

People of course can do evil with or without intent to do evil. Can the people who do evil without specific intent be spared from the label of evil? That is the type of question that people could argue forever, and in a way it is an attractive detour for N's like SV away from victims and into semantics. But whether someone harms another on purpose or by accident, while the context may be different the damage is the same. But even more importantly, the question of intent is a moot point because N's don't harm people accidentally. That is merely what they continuously claim, but appearance is not reality. Successfully "hiding" intent is not the same as "no intent". The contradicting claims of SV are a perfectly nauseatingly example of their continuous duplicity and utter disrespect for others then themselves.

There are people who honestly do evil by mistake, and woe to them: when they realize what they have done they suffer tremendously. They experience remorse, and tend to want to make efforts to right the wrong they have done. N's very obviously have nothing in common with humans like this. N's dodge accountability and minimize or deny all harm done, and quickly identify themselves as the real victim [of their own victim's accusations]. Most damningly, they REPEAT evil actions once they see the results. When they are able to "successfully" [covertly, "innocently"] cause disorder and hurt - they do it over and over and over on purpose.

N's also absurdly love to claim that because they "didn't have bad intentions" [lie] you are "unharmed". The lack of destructive intent is an outright lie, and they are really saying that as long as they hide their intent well, they have nothing to do with the disorder they cause. It is truly the depths of cynicism and disregard. Further, besides the fact that they are lying in the first place, the "logic" they use is just simply wrong: it is like someone saying no one was hurt in a car accident because there was no "intent" to harm.

We all know that N's plot, plan, scheme and then relish the results. I've seen N's smile at pain, injury, hurt and disorder. And quickly hide that smile.

Evil? Yes.

Intent? Obviously.

*One more thing: what is so wrong with "the e word"??? I notice that most mainstream discussions of evil basically tends to get around to Hitler as the main example. Like you have to be THAT evil to qualify as evil. Imagine if discussion of "good" was pretty limited to just Mother Teresa. Like you have to be THAT good to be "good"?

There is a book by C. S. Lewis called "The Screwtape Letters" which is a very sharp satire about evil, in the form of "letters" between an older demon and his nephew, who is allegedly a demon in training. The book is very funny, but makes many very serious points about the nature of evil. The point is made in one of the 'letters' that one of the greatest successes for the advancement of the cause [of evil] is people's reluctance to believe in it or take it seriously in everyday life. Yes, this allows evil to flourish. As Peck says, we need to "come to terms" with evil, and that means literally naming it for what it is.

Sorry for the long post - and thank you Anna for consistently bringing up the topic of EVIL.

Anonymous said...

No one 'should' have to take any kind of abuse-ever. The turning point for me was when I decided that I deserved better. The person I was kind and loyal to, treated me like bad milk, he did despicable things to my face and behind my back. I had had enough, I was really angry, and I made my anger work for me. I stood up for myself, told him exactly what I thought of him and his bad behavior (I had a whole laundry list- I was scary that day!) It felt great.

A teacher says to his pupil-
"I have a stick, and if you stand there, I'm going to beat you with it. And if you run, I'm going to chase you and hit you with the stick. So are you going to stand there or are you going to run?"

And the pupil replies, "I'm going to take the stick away."

Barbara said...

Anna said: He reveals his predatory and evil nature to full view in that statement. Obviously, he is shameless. More than that, he sounds rather proud of himself.

No kidding. Vaknin's WAAAAY past the narc stage -- he's a full blown SOCIOPATH!

BTW - Are they evil?? YES!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Dreamt this week I was at a family gathering with Nmom and relatives when suddenly my tongue begun to swell, throat begun closing shut. I felt that scary sensation, felt my airway closing. Immediately, I ran to Nmom pointing to my throat, face turning blue and she'd just stare through me like I didn't exist, and so did her family too. I was screaming in my head "I'M DYING, I'M DYING".

Suddenly my father appeared[passed in 2006] and was in focus while Nmom/relatives were now blurry/out of focus. At that moment I began to scream "Dad, I'm Dying". He reached his hands out to touch mine in a loving way and as soon as he touched me I woke up.

Didn't make N-connection until a colleague, who's into dream analysis, asked if I felt there were people trying to keep me from speaking truth. It all made sense now. That or unaware sleep apnea.

Sharp memory. People call me Rainman for the ability to conjure specific dates/times, conversations spoken. A child needs a good memory when you're raised in a Nfamily who rewrites history. You need to draw on that sharp memory so you don't believe you're the crazy one.

Anna Valerious said...

Jordie,

I've been working on a response to your question. Due to its length I'll put it up as a general blog post in a day or so.

marjeabea said...

Anna, I've missed NS lots. And yes, I say they are Evil. Like you said, their own invention. Was so glad to get plugged back in to the blog again...I just hosted my NM for what I knew, seeing her off at the airport, was the very last time. Her evil was a stench that was unavoidable. She manipulated my kids, duped us all several times for her enjoyment, and got us to overspend on her when she is the one constantly bragging about her gilded life and the ways she wants to bless us. I'd been so not used to being on my guard (a testament to my new health, I feel, where pathos is not built into every day) that I took a major beating in terms of fatigue, brain fry and devastation, and of course cleaning up the bizarre messes she made here...the one thing that amazed me was that my in-laws *noticed* this time. She's not as slick as she thinks, and they did not call out her bad behavior in her presence but they acknowledged it. My husband was appalled that she would go to such lengths to play games with others when she was supposed to be 'on vacation' enjoying her family...but I knew the score. Homegirl needs Supply with a capital 'S'. So anyway now I am here to index all of the NC stuff. Anna, I am finally at that point. I can believe it and yet I cannot. And I am so thankful for your blog. It has always served as a bedrock of information, courage and understanding. Please keep blogging. Oh, and the Peck book has been so good for me. Especially the explanation about revulsion being a perfectly appropriate and healthy response to evil people. Peace, Anna. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

The following is a dictionary definition of the word Evil and some of it's synonyms:
e·vil
–adjective 1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
Synonyms: heinous, immoral, iniquitous, maleficent, malevolent, malicious,malign, malignant.
Malignant and evil are synonomous, therefore a malignant narcissist is EVIL. Let's change the lexicon and call them "Evil Narcissists" from now on.

Anonymous said...

Are Narcissists Evil? Yes yes yes!

I remember reading a book during University (sadly, I can't remember the title but from looking at the description, it's along the lines of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Evil-Inside-Human-Violence-Cruelty/dp/0805071652/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224035538&sr=1-3)

Essentially it explained that true Evil as we know it - i.e. sociopathy - comes from a lack of emotion, not from anger or hatred.

As to whether or not Evil leaves a trace in our bodies, the MN I had to deal with, not willing to bring us to doctors as children (because, you know, that'd be "attention"), certainly left a series of physical remnants to us!

I can't even use my real name anywhere on the internet because the MN has stalked me and will stalk me as soon as I use it. I am trying to change my name but the provincial authority needs a psychiatric evaluation from me to believe that I have "serious reasons" to change said name.

Anonymous said...

Anna:

Is it always necessary to view the N as "evil" in order to go no contact? I can see where recognizing evil is beneficial for the victim who is having trouble breaking away from the N. Are there cases of victims who successfully broke away not by defining the N as evil, but just by defining the situation as incompatibility? I ask because some victims, for a variety of reasons, may be reluctant to call the N "evil", and this may be a stumbling block.

Anonymous said...

Are narcissists evil? Does day turn into night?

krl said...

...."Is it always necessary to view the N as "evil" in order to go no contact?"....Anonymous Oct. 17 4:11pm

This is a good question...and one I think each individual who has been 'hurt' by an N has to ask themselves. I, personally, have found many people I would call 'incompatible' with....who are either Ns or have Ncharacteristics. Some people seem to have a more 'natural' repugnance to self-centered, selfish, nasty people....and 'smell' and 'incompatibility' about them because they know it is ridiculous to even 'try'. The repugnance and revulsion early on means you have some 'good boundaries' and 'no damage done' after the first few contacts with them. You didn't get involved enough the be manipulated and twisted by evil. You walk away and say "Ugh." Unscathed. 'Evil' just didn't get a toe-in.....it didn't require 'a war in Heaven' to get them out of your life. I can do this NOW better than a year ago.....knowing what I do now.

HOWEVER, this blog seems to be mostly directed to the information and experiences of those of us who HAVE been in the 'devil's clutches'...because we were in vulnerable relationships as children, spouses, etc...lending itself to the long-term abuses and inculcations of Nmonsters. We did have a chance to develop boundaries....and weren't ALLOWED to develop any. If that isn't EVIL..(intentionally holding a person 'hostage' for personal use and gain...) I don't know what you WOULD call 'Evil'.

I believe that ANY victim of abuse...particularly long-term abuse....CAN NOT move out of the damage without NAMING it for what it is. If you have truly been 'abused'...and truly are a 'victim'...it is a damsight more than 'incompatibility'. But, yes....GOOD is incompatible with EVIL. But, if this twisted gut and Soul of mine 'favours' the term: 'Incompatible'....as a 'name' for what happened to me for 55 years.....I think the Devil will be laughing on my grave! The power of NAMING it 'Evil' has truly begun to free me. "GET THEE HENCE, SATAN." Jesus said it best.

Yeah....pretty much now....I just walk away from someone I meet and say "What a jackass..." and it seems fitting enough

Anonymous said...

that is one of the points i highly disagreed with vaknin on as well. these folks (those with npd) DO know they are evil and that how they behave is wrong. to think otherwise is sheer foolishness. it's, i'll go so far as to say, giving an excuse to be evil.

Anonymous said...

I think that it hasn't been stated explicitly enough in the previous comments that there is no argument presented in the referred article.
None. There is only a narcissistic buffoon unopposedly twisting a dictionary definition to absolve him of accountability for his (in)actions.

It is utterly irrelevant whether or not NPDs have a clear intention of harm; reality is not a courtroom nor a debating club.
The result is what matters: a haunting damage that may never heal completely, as so aptly stated.

In the Western world where it has become the norm to assign blame to all parties involved, it is tremendously liberating to call Evil by its name.
And if doing this upsets NPDs and social workers alike, the better.

As (longtime) recipients of this kind of treatment we shouldn't waste any effort to discuss with NPDs or to see things from their point of view.

krl said...

RE: Anonymous 6:44am Oct.22, 2008

I see your point(s). Thank you. I was only replying because I assumed that Anna posted the question from the reader and thought it had some value. I don't feel that my comment was a 'waste' nor an 'effort'.

krl

Anonymous said...

Re: krl Oct 22, 2008 3:25:00 PM

"I don't feel that my comment was a 'waste' nor an 'effort'."

Oh, I don't mean that you or anyone else replying in this thread is wasting their effort mulling over that article, sorry.

I'm referring to the societal expectation that NPDs should be met halfway and that their 'arguments' should be treated as valid and be reasoned with.

That is an utter waste of effort, especially for the victims.

Instead I urge to call self-serving bullshit what it is. Loudly.

Anonymous said...

they are evil alright, and the funny thing is that the NPD person that I know spends a great deal of time bad mouthing God and Catholics!Its like watching the exorcist!

Lara said...

krl said: We did have a chance to develop boundaries....and weren't ALLOWED to develop any.

wow. exactly what I needed at exactly the right moment. THANK YOU. I've been searching for a way to explain to my best friend how I can see something for what it is and still not routinely react in a healthy manner. what a relief. I've been feeling so self-flagelating about this; perhaps now I can let that go and just work on creating better boundaries.