Friday, January 23, 2009

New Tag Line

I decided this week I have found a new tag line for my blog. It captures the essence of what I'm doing here:

"It is much easier to make good men wise than to make bad men good."

This quote is pulled from Henry Fielding's book, "Tom Jones" first published in 1749. With a little thought I'm sure you can see why this quote fits my blog's effort. I don't advocate here that we spend our time, energy or resources on trying to make narcissists good. There is far too great a weight of evidence that it would be wasted effort on the narcissist. All my effort here is expended on making you, the reader, wise. So I apply my energy to that activity which has much better chance at success: helping good people to become wise people. I would be an abysmal failure if I channeled my efforts at trying to make "bad men good". Narcissists definitely fall into the category of "bad". There are enough apologists out there for the narcissist. My work here is entirely for those who've been caught like mice in the cat's paw.

Another thing I love about this quote is its antiquity. I love any illustration that some truths are timeless. Human nature is a constant like the law of gravity. Which is why history is so instructive for those who are interested in avoiding past follies and disasters.

End announcement of new tag line debut.

Regularly scheduled programming resumes:

My last post focused on people who use control to force people to do what they want. It is a red flag behavior in anyone it shows up in including people who can't be classified as a malignant narcissist. I have an aside along this line of thinking.

It is inevitable that I occasionally annoy, tick off and generally irritate a small percentage of people as they interact here on my blog or in email. This happens when my enduring persistence in telling the truth as I see it interferes with someone's opinions. Not everyone welcomes my honest opinions when it comes to a pet rock they are holding onto for dear life. My contradiction of their pet idea only makes me look like a 'bad guy' to them. This means that a typical scenario sets up with some regularity. I'm going to address it now.

I just want those of you who are offended by my frankness to let you know something about me. Writing to me in the comments that you are no longer going to comment on my blog is not perceived by me as a threat nor a punishment. This blog is not going to deteriorate in quality just because you no longer deign to grace it with your comments. Neither are you going to make me feel like a bad person because you're offended. I'm not going to suddenly throw my arms up and give in just to make sure no one out there thinks less of me.

Apparently, it isn't evident to some that I am impervious to such manipulations via guilt and shame. All you will do is make me think less of you for trying to punish me for simply holding a contrary opinion to your own.

Ah, yes, I can hear the denials that the intent is to punish me, but I would call such denials lies.

Because if you weren't trying to punish me then you'd simply shut up with not another word said. You would not send in ONE LAST COMMENT to make sure I KNOW that your silence is filled with your oppobrium. This method has been used on me frequently enough over the years that it simply makes me roll my eyes. It is not my problem if you are so easy to offend. Especially since I am obviously not trying to offend.

I was an owner of a ladies-only religious group for three years. This is where I was first confronted by this method of attempting to control me and what I say. I am pretty sure it has only been women who have tried this method of control on me. IT WON'T WORK. It has never worked. You're not so important that it'll suddenly start working because you're doing it.

Here's the deal with me. I am not here doing what I do because I need attention or praise. I'm neither elated by your praise nor dejected by your censure. This is not a work of ego. I don't need other people's approval for the opinions I hold, nor do I relinquish my opinions simply because someone doesn't like them. Think about it. I have successfully gone "no contact" with my parents for years now. My sister too. Do you really think that your disapproval of me means anything??

So, if you plan to fire off that last comment telling me you won't be commenting anymore please take in the above. You haven't unsettled me. You haven't changed my mind. I don't feel like I'm "bad" because your knickers are in a twist. I think less of you, not myself, for your petty little attempt to control and/or manipulate and/or punish me. If you wanna dress me down then have the courage to send that message in an email where you can run the risk of having to hear back from me. Putting in a comment you feel pretty sure that I won't put through means you want the last word with out giving me any opportunity to discuss the matter with you privately. This is another indication that you're trying to punish me and not behave like an adult with another adult.

Just so's ya'll know the score. I think I'll be tacking this onto my comment policy for future reference since this scenario pops up like a perennial weed.

102 comments:

Kathleen said...

"It is much easier to make good men wise than to make bad men good."

You gotts' work with the materials given to you. Good men WANT to be wise. Bad men have no desire to be good.

As a friend once told me "If you bang your head long enough on a brickwall, the wall won't fall down. But you will get a concussion."

- Kathleen

Katrina said...

Anna,

It's interesting how some people can forget that WE found YOUR blog. Emphasis on YYOOUURRRR!!!!

It's not an open forum run as a democracy. It's YOUR freakin' forum, that YOU have graced US with having access to!

And yet...YOU graciously allow US to not only benefit from your sharing YOUR time, efforts, blood, sweat & tears with US--but to actually interact with you & each other.

Thank you for all you do.

Katrina

Anonymous said...

"Ah, yes, I can hear the denials that the intent is to punish me, but I would call such denials lies.
Because if you weren't trying to punish me then you'd simply shut up with not another word said."

Sooooo true!! I have forgotten simple truths like these .... thank you so much for the reminder!!! Awesome.

-getting smarter

Anna Valerious said...

Katrina,

Thank you for your kind acknowledgment of what I do here. And I also appreciate that you recognize this isn't a democracy where every wind of opinion blows and where everyone has to pretend all opinions are of equal weight. I am glad to for your recognition that it is a gift and not a right to comment here. Most people do understand that fact as is evidenced by their contribution of quality comments.

In a very real way this blog is like my living room. If you are inclined, you are invited to come for tea. General rules for politeness apply as well as a recognition that there are certain things you don't do when you're sitting in someone else's living room. You don't put your feet on the furniture, you don't let your dog piddle on the carpet, you don't get all huffy just because you suddenly disagree with the hostess and leave by slamming the door. Well, you can do any of the above but likely will be promptly UNinvited for such things. The recognition that this is my living room also means that I make the decorating decisions and get to choose the furniture i.e. people don't get to use the comments section to shape my blog in any old way they please.

Anyway, most people understand all this. I'm preachin' to the choir. I just was happy to read your comment because it is filled with a gracious recognition of my personal space.

Anna Valerious said...

I like your quote, Kathleen. I guess we could say that this blog is my attempt to get people to step away from the wall, get a ladder and climb over it into freedom! ;o)

Rebecca said...

Dear Anna,

I'm 34 years old and it has only been a few months ago that I even heard of the word narcissism and its meaning.

Not only did it completely explain my narcissist mother, enabler father, and golden child sister, but only now am I beginning to understand the reasons why I am the person I am today.

I went no contact with my family about ten years ago. At the time I called it emotional abuse. I told very few people because of the shame and guilt I felt - that it somehow was my fault I had to stop speaking to them.

Unfortunately, I've attracted far too many narcissistic people in my life. Fortunately, through this blog and others I've been able to find the tools to slowly weed these people out of my life.

I'm thankful to say that the only narcissistic people remaining in my life are my in-laws. While my husband acknowledges their behaviour and its cruelties, he wishes to continue a limited relationship with them. I'm equally thankful that he and I will hopefully (job interview pending) be moving very far away from them next month and hence the less contact, the better.

Thank you for your writing Anna. It has truly been an eye-opener for me.

Rebecca

Anonymous said...

I like the new tag line!

To me the essence of control/manipulation is to attempt to cause someone who [rightly] perceives themselves as having a wide range of options to change to [wrongly] perceiving having fewer. Or actually, usually just one, the one the controller personally wants for whatever reason.

PS - I am one who comes here to your "living room" to hear the strong opinions! The fact that you have them should not be a surprise to folks. Your picture has a SWORD in it, for heaven's sake!

sumptos devil s advocate said...

I have a quick question, What exactly does it mean to be self-absorbed? Does it mean that one is stuck in one's head, daydreaming, or does it mean something different or more specific than that?

sojourner kate said...

Anna,

I really appreciate your policy of zero tolerance of bullies. It feels very healthy and very clean.

Thank you for your presence on the internet. I have learned so much from reading here.

Keep on brooming all the BS to the curb!

Kathleen said...

Rebecca,
Good luck with the job interview. The farther away you can move, the better. Don't let them guilt you into staying!

Anna, nice curtains. Pass the sugar, please.

- Kathleen

SecretWife56 said...

Dear Anna,

I want to tell you how much I enjoy your blog. My future ex-husband has NPD and is very emotionally abusive of me.

Your insight has helped me immensely. Like you, I have no contact with my family for pretty much the same reasons as you, and I would leave my husband this very second if I could.

I am working toward leaving him. Until I can, I will continue to read your excellent blog and I want to thank you for having the courage to speak out about the casual evil and everyday viscousness practiced by these monsters!

SecretWife56

So, what IS in a heart? said...

This place is one of the best blogs out there. I'm not surprised that detractors are coming forth. It's inevitable for ANY blog, especially one like this one.

Anonymous said...

Anna,

Thanks for this blog, it has saved my sanity (what's left) and I refer it to others I meet who fight the same battles.

If someone doesn't agree with you, it's your right to post or not post their comments, and I suspect you are very judicious there, knowing you. I have the highest respect for you and all you are doing here and can't thank you enough!

Anonymous said...

Anna-
Three words:
GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

Anna Valerious said...

"What exactly does it mean to be self-absorbed?"

It means to be excessively occupied with your own self interests. This can be mild or only in certain contexts. It can be the result of illness. Usually when people start using the term 'self-absorbed' about someone it is because their level of self-absorption has become excessive and is making the person remarked upon look very selfish. The term "self-absorbed" is actually just a term coined to sound a little less harsh than "selfish". Narcissists take self-absorption to the level of pathology. It is all-consuming and unmitigated by any interest in anyone else's needs or interests. They are only interested in themselves = self-absorbed.

Anna Valerious said...

To me the essence of control/manipulation is to attempt to cause someone who [rightly] perceives themselves as having a wide range of options to change to [wrongly] perceiving having fewer. Or actually, usually just one, the one the controller personally wants for whatever reason.

This is a very interesting way of expressing it. Thanks for boiling it down like that.

Thanks too for coming here for the strong opinions. I doubt this would be a very interesting blog if I nattered on with lots of 'maybes' and 'wherefores' and 'perhaps' thereby hoping to avoid offending anyone by avoiding making statements of certainty. Ain't got time for that. And neither do most of you.

Anonymous said...

Seems to me that someone who will try to control you, Anna, by using YOUR website...Has anyone ever heard of Narcissists...?

HAHAHAHAHA

God bless and put the trash out of your life everyone.

Colleen

Anonymous said...

Maybe a bit OT, but would like to share this. I've been NC with my N sister for a year now - HOT DOGGITY!! A YEAR!!!

Anyway (excuse the enthusiasm), she sent me a birthday gift today. I got a book from her at Christmas (more of her religious trash, threw it away) and did not respond.

Today, for the FIRST time in my life, she actually got me something I like, some coffee and a Burt's Bees sampler. Proving...that all this time, all these years, she knew what I liked, she just refused to bother to get it for me, it was ALWAYS perfume (which I can't wear) or religious books (which I suspect she got so she could first read them). Now that I'm NC and could care less, she's doing her best to entice me back. What a joke. Dream on, Doofus.

And kudos to you, Anna, for refusing to be manipulated by bogus posters. Whack 'em off at the knees.

Katherine Gunn said...

Anna, thanks to your blog - to you :-) - I have had the courage to fight the guilt (blah blah blah) and be mostly NC with my mom. Haven't seen her in almost 7 months - haven't talked to her for 2 months. :-)

Thank you for letting us into your living room. It is a very comfortable place . at least to me.

crazyyears said...

Anna,

I'm am trying to figure out if somebody I know falls into the line of a narcissist.

One of the most compelling things I've found....is their initiation of some sort of "intent" to do or give me something or do something for me...then after days or even weeks....this person may mention it again..but rarely, if ever, follows through.

This is so strange to me simply because it's never something I asked for. This person will then go about the business of making "excuses" (that really don't make any sense)...for not following through. Then eventually....it's totally forgotten as if the person never mentioned it to begin with.

Also...I find that this person also kind of disappears emotionally and mentally for days if not weeks. Then suddenly I am their best friend again.

I also find them "lying"....to others about events...that I know damn well didn't happen the way they said. But, lol, I have this innate feeling that if I correct them...all hell well break loose.

As an example, this person paired with somebody else in an argument toward a third person. There was actual harassment and even "stalking" going on by the person my friend paired with. My friend was actually...in "glee" when this happened. However, later...seemed to lose total memory about what really happened and told this third person she was horrified when she had been harrassed. ????

what?

Last but not least, my friend "brags" about having the perfect spouse, kids, job, family etc.....regularly. They are quite over weight...almost morbidly obese and yet on "facebook" has a pic of as a much younger and rather thin person of them self.

I mean, I can certainly understand why one might choose a little younger pic or a "good" picture...but the contrast is...almost deceitful.

Oh...one more thing. They would much rather communicate with me via message boards then e-mail. They would rather be around me with others around in person...then just do lunch with me alone for instance.

Are they always looking for an audience? I think so......

Anyway, I don't know if this fits the criteria for narcissism or not. When this person is in a good mood I find them cheery, bright and fun....and seemingly seems to "care".

But lately, it's been very dissapointing. I find myself feeling bad about the friendship most of the time. :o(

I've only know this person about a year and a half or so.....and it seems they don't have any "real" friends....other then "acquaintances" that they seem to operate on some kind of shallow level.

I don't know.......

Kathleen said...

Your livingroom. Your LIVING ROOM. The room where you LIVE.
Your personal space.

Huh. I have a living room. The room where I live extends about, what, 3 feet from me in all directinns? Don't invade that area unless you've been invited.

The room where I live is also the room taken by my heart, my soul, my mind. It's where I process feelings, data, facts and myths. If you are invited, you can come there and look at it. If you disagree with what you see, that's okay. Just be gentle and respectful of it. It's mine. Don't trash it or try to destroy it. If I know you are a friend you may even get me to rearrange some of my living room.

But if you try to trash it, if you've hoodwinked me into letting you in so you can destroy it, if I've learned enough to recognize it, you will be booted out and the door locked behind you. I will wipe your dust off my feet, out of my living room.

If I haven't learned enough to notice it yet then in part of that space is still a naive, innocent, trusting child. And the sin will be on your head.

- Kathleen

nameless, but not voiceless said...

I am loving the new tagline just as much as the old one!

I can't tell you how much your blog has helped, inspired, and educated me. The past couple of years with your blog has brought forth some of the healthiest insight for me and my husband regarding the narcissists in our lives. A big, fat THANK YOU is all I can give in return, although I know it's not near enough repayment for all that you've done for me.

Screw all the people hell-bent on getting the last word in by commenting that they're not gonna comment anymore. Sounds like a 6 year old to me. :)

It's so hard to stomach the fact that some people out there feel as if they HAVE to control you; your actions, your thoughts, your feelings.. everything. And even by some ignorant chance you still play along, underneath, they still hate your guts. Sickos.

Bottome line- Your blog provides a no-bullshit approach to the harsh reality that many of us have had/or are dealing with. Anyone who feels "offended" obviously likes to wallow in their own fecal matter.

-Nameless

Anonymous said...

Thank you dear heart. You have really helped me make it through the last few months. While we deal with different problems, my sister and grandmother are sociopaths, bent on power and domination rather than compulsively garnering attention...your clearness about dealing with evil kept me strong and clear eyed while making decisions. You will never know what you have meant to me and my children. See you around the throne of Christ! There are jewels in your crown for your willingness to step up and say what is true.

Anonymous said...

Anna You have a nice cushy couch!! Thanx a million!!

Anonymous said...

What I like about this blog is the emphasis on critical thinking, hard truths, and solid fact and information. To me, that is what we need to make and carry out the hard tasks of freeing ourselves from the extensive, highly motivated and confusingly complex campaign of the N. Our personal core of truth and the hard facts of our real experience are exactly what the N tries to steer us away from, and instead wants us back on their playing field of false sentiments, promises, suggestions, hints, cues, threats, bluffs, drama, fakery, pettiness and so on. This blog provides an excellent 'reality check' that brings things back to the real underlying dynamic under the crap.

It is sometimes hard to stay focused on what is real, even if it is the spin of memory sometimes asking "was it really that bad?" A horrible aspect of life with an N is the fact that there is a usually a convergence of very strong interests between us and them. BOTH sides very desperately want to believe things to be actually "good", but the N only wants that in image, never in reality.

You helped me see that N's are truly living a double-life, the interior of which they don't even show to the most intimate people in their lives. No one ever sees it. They are truly intimate with no one, no matter how close we may have believed ourselves to be with them. I read something recently about why it is easy to get a realistic first impression from a healthy person: because the outside matches the inside. They aren't hiding giant agendas, motives and emotions, nor do they have any reason to promote a huge "spin" on themselves. N's hide their motives and emotions these knowing full well they are wrong and unacceptable, and know that to show them would make people hate them and flee them. That's another huge truth I got from this blog: the fact that N's HIDING their motives proves meaningful awareness of the reason to hide them, because they know they are WRONG.

Thank you for this straight talking blog, and your tough and intelligent stance. And for me especially, for making it clear how N's work in groups and run in families, which is something I never got from books but experienced in real life and was very confused by until I found this blog. Many N books I've seen focus on "the boss from hell" or the "crazy ex" but not on the fact that whole family groups can be largely N. Many thanks for your hard work in providing excellent content for people to really put to use in their lives, and make true change for the better.

Anna Valerious said...

Wow. If I ever write a book I'd ask you to do the synopsis and review. Thank you for your analysis of my blog. Very appreciated.

Kathleen said...

Luke 17:3 Ministries' website has a section called The Wisdom of Proverbs.
I've taken that to heart and have been truly trying to read Proverbs, and in such a way as to not read it as if I'm reading Bartlett's Quatations.

I've also just complete a study of the Job.

In Job God aks who it was who told the oceans how far to come and no futher, who set the stars in the heavens, etc.

Seems to me that God put some laws in place and then left them to operate according to His design. I think it's safe to assume that God doesn't need to remind Himself to cause the sun to rise or the oceans to come thus far and no further. He set laws in motion and has no need to "check up on them." He has, however, on occasion interjected Himself into Hos own natural laws, as when Jesus calmed the storm. He did not let the wind and ocean continue, for that short time, according to the original plan. Also parting the Red Sea. And other times.

So Proverbs --- a book of natural laws, set in motion, and only changed with a direct interference by God?? Hmmm. I think so.

Isaiah and Ezekial and Daniel --- prophets who spoke who at times saw "visions," things that were supernatural, things that foretold the future.

Not so with the author(s) of Proverbs. These were truths that were actually witnessed and learned just from experience, just from living. These truths are not supernatural, but are natural. Yes, I believe they are "supernatural" in the sense that God ordained them to be truths, but "natural" in the sense that He put these laws into motion, much like gravity, then left these laws to function, needing little interference or tweaking.

There is nothing new under the sun. There were murderers and liars and perjurers and haughty people long before written history. God is well-aware of who they are.

People often quote the Bible and say that God said "Vengeance is mine" but they forget the rest "I wil repay."

I can see so much dysfunction in my ILs' lives -- I haven't posted those things. My goal is not to embarrass them or hurt them; my goal is to protect my children, protect myself. But I can see God's "natural" laws at work. I may not see all of it, but I can see some of it because it is so evident.

I would do well to study Proverbs to keep my own feet from slipping. I am quite capable of sinning. But there is a difference between my sin and an N's sin. It's the consistency, the arrogance, the willfulness. It's the refusal to accept instruction, the refusal to be humbled.

Proverbs. An amazing book.

- Kathleen

Kathleen said...

Anna,
If you ever write a book, I'll not only buy it, I'll buy it from Amazon using your widge! lol

- Kathleen

Nancy said...

Dear Anna,
I very much liked the wonderful comment by Anonymous at 10:53 A.M. Your value to all of us could not have been stated better.
This last posting has struck a very strong chord with me. I am often overwhelmed by the memories that come back to me of spending 50 years in the company of an MN mother. The clues were there, all along, I just did not know about NDP. I have been silenced by her my whole life. When I finally found my voice three years ago and spoke up to her, she played the nasty wounded child and hung up on me. That is all it took. One confrontation - quietly
and finally not letting her get away with her lies and childish acts and she struck me from her life. As my understanding husband stated, "The mask has come off!" I have heard nothing from her, my MN sister or enabling minion sister since. But it happened in a way that placed the responsibility of a broken family on my shoulders. They are never responsible for any bad behavior. There is peace in not having to "pretend" we have a relationship, which we never really had. But the anger remains. I have no closure.
I know that whatever I do or say would be perceived as a vicious attack on a little old lady who is innocent of any wrongdoing, anytime in her life. She is an emotional bully with a stick and it feels like she is still beating me over the head with it. The silent treatment was always her weapon of choice. I have yet to find the peace in my own heart that I am accomplishing what I need to for my own health and sanity. I spent 50 years of my life caring for these people and adjusting my own honor and integrity to "get along" with them. The one thing that I had not fully realized was just how dangerously devoid of human decency these people really are.

I read your blog every day, Anna. It keeps me grounded and shows us all that we are not alone in a world full of narcissistic monsters.

Holland said...

Anna,
It's incredible that they dare to give you this kind of comment. This is the same, always reappearing, proof that they have no limits, no respect for anyone. They feel probably attacked and have to hit back. They are so pathatic. Thank God, Anna you have such a great backbone, such a great insight. You are a great example for me, a great teacher. Not one book (I read more than one meter books about this problem)did give me that much insight as do you. Just straight forward, no BS.
My backbone is growing too, and I am so greatful to you and all the posters. Your house is so warm and comforting. It's the house I missed my whole life.
Thank you all
Holland

Kimberley said...

Yes, I concur with all of the comments from your readers, Anna.

My new motto is..."Realism is the golden key to liberty"...

I want my reality, the good, the bad and the ugly.

From my perspective, confronting reality on a daily, minute basis is so liberating and it allows me to become stronger, wiser and more capable of dealing with any bs slung in my direction.

I can totally relate to your character and your fundamental rational, truth seeking nature as I'm the same exact way.

Thanks to your blog and a few others I read, I am a whole, complete happy woman. I've faced my issues, deeply contemplated what hinders me from having a joyful life, then threw them in the trash bin. They are null & void in the present.

And what you wrote about not needing validation, appreciation from anyone? That's me! When you value yourself, your own opinions, ideas/ideals, your own unique thoughts, your own beliefs created and nurtured by you and you alone...WOW! It is truly amazing and awesome the personal power that is generated.

I love your iron will and your spine of steel. You've earned it and you've earned my respect and admiration whether you wanted it or not!..haha.

God bless you, Anna...

krl said...

"...Psalm 42:7 says, "Deep calls unto deep." Only a call from the depths can provoke a response from the depths. Nothing shallow can ever touch the depths, nor can anything superficial touch the inward parts. Only the deep will respond to the deep. Anything that does not issue from the depths cannot touch the depths. Others can respond deep within to only what issues from deep within us. When we go to a certain place and listen to a message, the only thing that touches us is something that has issued from the depths of others. If nothing comes from the depths, the help we receive is just superficial. We have to see the importance of the depths. Anything that is not from the depths will never reach the depths of others. If we have never received help or benefit in our depths, we will never have anything issuing from our depths. If we want to render spiritual help to others, something must issue from our depths. If we do not dig deep, we can never gain others. Unless our utterance is from the depths, we will not touch the depths in others, even though we gain their emotions and thoughts and make them cry or be happy or excited for a while. Only deep calls unto deep. Superficial expressions will not touch the depths of others...."

Hi, all....This is a quote from who knows where.....(and at this point, I don't care...)...What I know from what you have offered us, Anna....that my whole being and experience feels 'witnessed'. Prior to reading your posts and this blog, the ONLY 'witnesses' I had for my experiences were my own tears and memories. Victims NEED a 'witness'.....they NEED to know that either someone else SAW it....or EXPERIENCED it.....or BELIEVES them. You have provided us with not only those things...but have given 'language' and a 'platform' for us to begin to express the unUtterable.

Any of us who have experienced the rape and pillage that an N leaves in their wake....RECOGNIZE the Truth of what happened once it has been spoken. You don't have to be a lawyer and a scholar or a writer or intellectual....to 'get it'. This isn't necessarily about your brain calculating the 'math'.....the response in my SOUL....and in the depths of my HEART have FAR outweighted any 'pet belief system' I have adhered to. This is a GutLevelThing. (I'm not saying that I don't appreciate that Anna and many of you present some incredibly well thought out, intellectual, comprehensive, and other eye-popping things. Thank you!)

Keep it Real...Keep it Direct...Continue to say what most of us can't or don't know how to....Carry on.

Anna Valerious said...

Your house is so warm and comforting. It's the house I missed my whole life.

Holland, your words made me tear up. This is a compliment that I cherish and means very much to me.

Krl, your most recent comment I read directly after Holland's. It just made the tears already started flow a little faster. Ya'll are touching my heart.

Kimberley, your motto is wonderful. It is exactly right on. You've earned it and you've earned my respect and admiration whether you wanted it or not!..haha I love your spunk. I appreciate your respect whether I wanted it or not!

Kathleen, Nancy, Nameless, and all the rest of the anonymous and named crowd. Thanks. Your comments are appreciated very much. Your kind thoughts toward me are warm and enjoyable. Like putting a fuzzy warm sweater on when the blizzard is a-blowin'.

Crazyyears,

Is your friend a narcissist? I suspect so. You list many pervasive behavior patterns. Persistent behavior patterns. If she isn't a narcissist she is damn close. Close enough that I know I wouldn't be dealing with her.

SecretWife56, keep your courage. You're not alone. Be safe.

crazyyears said...

Anna,

Thanks for your response. :o)

I suspect so too....

Today I made a rather bold move..lol..although toward a non-narcissist person it really would be no big deal....so perhaps I put her to the test.

Anyway, my friend has been promising me for weeks now to send me a CD her husband burned (she's recently moved and we live quite a distance from each other now). I found it rather surprising that he or she would even burn a CD for me...as I am quite sure neither has any idea what kind of music I like. I never asked for a CD...I never asked for anything. {{{shrug}}}. But I was gracious in my response to her.

Anyway, a week later no CD (I wasn't surprised). So then I got an e-mail (that surprised me as usually she'd rather communicate with me on a public message board) that she had not sent it yet but is going to the "post office" that day. Then 4 or 5 days later she told me that the package was returned for not enough postage. I also noticed....annoyance...in her e-mail...it was curt...cold as if I had asked her to mail me this thing and was now really putting her out. LOL!

NOw...lol...me thinketh if one goes to a "post office" the "post office" applies the postage...no?

Anyway, so I wrote her back and told her that's okay and that although I was looking forward to receiving it....she was free to send it at her convenience. She never answered that e-mail (which she does quite often...never answers my e-mails.)

That was 11 days ago and although I have received another e-mail from her (bragging about her family) she never mentioned the package.

Anyway, today I sent her an e-mail and told her that I was cleaning my in-box (not quite the truth...)out and came across the "returned package for no post" e-mail from her and realized I still have never received it....and I was wondering if perhaps it got lost in the mail.

(LOL....fat chance of that!)

Anyway, for anybody else....for a "real" friend I would have held no reservations about asking them something so simple. I know if I sent somebody something I would want to know if they never received it. Also....if they never mentioned it....I would have wondered why if I sent it.

Funny thing is....I have this gut feeling that me simply asking her about it is going to be met with rage and/or total withdrawel (as generally I have been too shy to say anything). Or at the very least....she'll totally ignore my note and pretend, once again, she never offered anything.

After several months of her "promises" (for things I never asked for) I finally decided to make her accountable.

I'm actually nervous. lol

Anyway, to keep on topic...I agree with all your friends here. This is a nice place to visit for us that feel like we're in the twilight zone and to get some sort of validation for our feelings. If some assholes don't like it...they don't have to come here.

Maybe they don't like you blowing their cover? LOL :o)

Anonymous said...

Hi Anna

What a brilliant blog. You have brilliant insights & writing of them is brilliant too.

It was about 15 years ago had an extended stay with the inlaws, 2 weeks it was. I sensed a selfish aura from mil. But there was nothing she really did that was outright selfish, it didn’t make sense. Of course it was all inside that velvet glove. How dare she. N are so much trouble & when your life goes belly up (because of their sneaky interferences) they have the hide to come & rub your nose in it. The inlaws are no longer welcome, actually they went no contact on the premise that we were sorting ourselves out, so good of them. What twisted people.

KS

Kathleen said...

Today I woke up a little sad. All of you tell stories that make my heart ache for the children you once were. Reading newspaper accounts of abuse/neglect is one thing; hearing you recount stories in the first person is another.

I miss my DH very much. He was loving, gentle, caring, generous. I never lacked for flowers, cards, candy, nights out. He used to warm my side of the bed. lol

And he loved my daughter as much as I did. That's a BIGGIE. He had to take money from his 401(k) and got penalized --- but we had to pay for the adoption. It was very expensive.

My brother calls and still says "I really liked D. He was a real man." My sister goes to the cemetary with me. My other brothers and sister call frequently, help me at the house when they can (they don't live close). Even my young neices and nephews will go to DH's online website and light a candle, leave a message.

He used to say "Your family is not my family." He didn't talk about his childhood, not even with prompting.

I don't really know exactly how he was raised. One of his extended FOO told me "Those kids raised themselves."

All his FOO had been invited, or just came, to our home numerous times. Never contributed a thing. We fed them, entertained them, gave up our beds for them. And not one kind word when he had his first child or when that child was very sick. Not one kind word when he was sick. Actually, after taking so much from us they all put him down -- as was the norm during the years I knew him.

His sister wrote me an email a wihle back and told an outright lie about him -- and stripped him of his good deed done at his initiative, and basically called him p-- whipped. I think that's disgusting. When they put him down only days after his death it sent me into an obsessive rage.

No one deserves the treatment all of you received as children. When I think of how wonderful this man was, and how giving to his own family and how they repaid him, I'm angry still, but today I'm sad.

It's really hard to be N/C when you still want to strike back, when you know you have so much to say in the hopes of shaming them.

I won't break the N/C, but I won't say it's easy to keep this inside. He didn't deserve it. He loved them and showed them -- and they spit on what he gave them, spit on his character and memory.

I hope they all fail at whatever they put their hands to.

And he was the ONLY one of the 5 siblings who was living a healthy, functional life.

Sometimes Ns don't make me mad. Today they are making me sad.

- Kathleen

Rebecca said...

"It's really hard to be N/C when you still want to strike back, when you know you have so much to say in the hopes of shaming them."

I've struggled with this one as well. Narcissists hurt you in unimaginable ways - they destroy your soul. Once you you have the knowledge and the strength to break away and built your identity and your self, it is only natural to want to retaliate. Self-survival and all.

Another message board I frequent someone has the following quote in their signature.

"Why is it that the only one who can stop the crying is the one who started it in the first place?"

You will never receive forgiveness or repentance from narcissists. The only forgiveness you'll receive is what you give yourself.

Anonymous said...

Crazyyears: "Today I made a rather bold move..lol..although toward a non-narcissist person it really would be no big deal....so perhaps I put her to the test."

This cracked me up with recognition - so true!! All sorts of "little things" can be such an undercover war with the N's. With N friends you get this gut feeling after a while that tells you that if you don't dance around all sorts of simple normal things it will cause an explosion/implosion of sorts. I had an N friend who offered to take me out to celebrate something. At the very last minute, she said I had to drive. A little thing right? In my gut, I KNEW it was more. I got this impish urge to "test" her. I said I couldn't drive, car problems too, so I guess we had to reschedule. She quickly but reluctantly said she could drive after all [!?], but was silently steaming and punishing during the drive, all the while smiling and being "friendly" on the surface. No kidding, she did all these indirect things like came up with a "reason" to be late, fake-casually "insult" my road [I know, I know... ONLY AN N!!], "mysteriously" neglect to pull in the driveway even though it meant blocking traffic, and all sorts little things that proved she was mad about losing out on the "driving thing".

As another friend and I like to say...hmmm, time to cut ballast!

Kathleen said...

The written word lacks inflection. I'm so aware of that.

I want to clarify. When my DH would say "Your family is not my family," he didn't mean that he wasn't a part of my family or he was rejecting them. Quite the contrary. He loved my FOO and they all loved them.

He would say that in a tone of voice that could only be characterized as sometimes wistful, sometimes hurt, somestimes trying to "educate me" -- you can't get blood from a stone.

Just wanted to clear that up.

- Kathleen

Kathleen said...

Rebecca,
No, I will never recieve repentence from them. For what? They did nothing wrong. They were ENTITLED to take from DH and me and the girls.

But they have offered me their "forgiveness." My sin was telling them they are cut off. But they're much bigger people than I could ever aspire to be!! LOL

This is an actual excerpt from a message left to my DH on his online obit:
"You are a great reflection of your family... kind, loving, devoted, forgiving..."

They have offered me an olive branch. Decisions, decisions.
Ummmm....no.

As far as being a reflection of his family? Somewhere out there is a wonderful, loving couple with an N son who don't realize their baby was switched at birth.

= Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Wow, Kathleen, every time I read about your in-laws I want to grab them by their ears and shake the hell out of them. We are all here for you to write your frustration out...so you can get it out of your system. THEY would love to start a big bruhaha with you so they could have someone to bitch about. Be strong and never give them that satisfaction.

Thanks, Anna, for allowing us to share and vent.

God bless and kick the trash to the curb.

Colleen

Anonymous said...

Please continue to step outside the comfort zone. That is precisely what is needed to expose the Ns in this world.

Anonymous said...

"casual evil and everyday viscousness"

I think that's the most crazy-making part of dealing with an N. That weird N ability to stab you in the back with a smile on their face. That total comfort and ease with which they do their damage astounds me, even now.

Holland said...

The truth and nothing than the truth..... so help me God! This is my motto now, after living so many years in lies. My words about your house being so warm and comforting are for me the truth. It makes me happy that I it made you feel good. You deserve it, more than words can say. Your blog is the only place where I could express what happened to me without the feeling that my truth is not excepted by others, where I feel that I can tell with what horror I lived.

When my DH passes me when I am sitting at the computer and he strikes my hair, I cringe. My nerve ends are so very 'present' and I feel a kind of pain instead of a caress. That's because I had so many blows on my head given by my NMom, me just eating or playing at the dinner table. The abuse is present every day, it entered my bones. But I do not feel hate anymore, I do not want to retaliate anymore. I just do not want to have contact with them ever again. They won't change, but I change and that's such a great feeling. I try to use my horrible experience with them in dayly life. And it works. Defcon Red works in my favour in my work, I see everything, know now how to use this way of observing, know how to react on what I see, how to deal with the things I observe. What I thought would never be solved (the pain, the sadness, the grieving, the fear, the loneliness having no relatives anymore) dissappears slowly when the months grow into years of NC.

In the center of the city of Rotterdam (the Netherlands) there is a statue that embodies the city that lost her hart in World War II. It was made by Ossip Zadkine. That's how I still feel. But slowly this feeling starts to become covered by all these posts with compassion, with comfort, with kind words we never or hardly heard. It feels so good. Nobody ever listened to us when we were little or even grown ups. We had no voice. You have such a beautiful healing voice Anna. Nobody may ever silence you!

Holland

enilina said...

But they have offered me their "forgiveness."

Wow Kathleen, my N-mom just said this last night! She talked about how she "forgiven" her son-in-law and by default her daughter, her once golden child but no more. Golly how generous and big of her to "forgive" them! Ugggg! I didn't say anything 'cause any response only feeds those trolls.

Thank you Kathleen for empathizing and extending your sympathy, it's always validating when an "outsider" (meaning having non-N parents) see our past situation for what it really was.

Nancy said...

My husband and I were both blessed with MN families. MN mothers, enabling fathers, MN older sisters, and cowardly other siblings. His sister is pure evil.

I learned the very hard way with his family first, that you cannot fight with these people. It is hopeless. The really evil ones want you to fight with them. We didn't give them what they wanted.
It was not easy.

My MN MIL passed away and the information was strategically withheld from us for six months. No obit notice in the paper or anything. We found out in a letter from the lawyer who was handling her estate. A whole other story - How an evil narcissist can strike back from the grave. In the end she proved, without a shadow of a doubt, that she was who we thought she was.

Hang in there, Kathleen. It does get easier to ignore them. For me, the F.O.G. (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) has begun to clear. I can see much better now exactly how pathetic they are. (my FOG reference was from "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward).

My wise husband once said that the irony in the end was that we actually gave his mother was she needed the most. Attention. Her very own pity party, hosted and attended by her cowardly minions.
My MN mother is sadly having her own party. She needs others to feel as sorry for her as she does for herself. At my expense, but as my backbone grows, it matters less.

Anna, I have made much stronger strides since finding your blog site. You hit every nail on the head with your words and insight.
You have created a haven for all of us.

DagnyAtl said...

A. Valerious: You and your blog are the BOMB (that means great), and provide an invaluable public service so we, your readers, may (as Oprah says) "enjoy our best life" by means of educating us truth seekers about the character disorder, narcissism.

Let me see if I understand this, a person posts comments to vent his/her displeasure w/ your opinions (on your blog no less), and then tries to control you in this fashion?

How ironic!! He/she must be the most pathetic of narcissist alive insofar they have driven away any audience they've ever had to the point where they have to harrass a complete stranger on the 'net! As if you didn't write about it, it didn't exist?

A.V., you've never written anything I could even CONSIDER to be REMOTELY offensive. Keep up the good work!
Adios, DagnyAtl

Anna Valerious said...

DagnyAtl,

Thanks for your kind comments. As for your opinion that I've not ever written anything remotely offensive...I'm sure others have found plenty to be offended over, but this much is true: I certainly don't TRY to be offensive. I got an amusing comment from a troll on Sat. night who called the one post he read "very pretentious". (The post was my first one on the "Saviour Complex". He said he found it in a Google search.) Never been called that! *giggle* He went on to call me a loud mouth with a bunch of people who stand around thinking I'm "the shit", i.e. wonderful, just like it always happens in grade school. So, obviously, people bring their own filter and view me through their own particular lens and come up with widely varying opinions. Maybe I should say that some people "get" me and some most definitely don't.

I'm sensing you're an Atlas Shrugged fan? Very cool if'n ya are. :o)

krl said...

Hi, Anna....

How stupid are people anyway? I don't think I've ever read ANY of your posts or comments that haven't had a 'take it or leave it' stance. You are OFFERING us a smorgasborg (sp!)of information, experience, and wisdom.....in short: The Truth. If any of us don't like it....we don't have to read it...much less comment on it. You really don't seem to NEED 'followers'...or praise....or validation.....That is how it SHOULD be.

Another point...When you first started your blog several years ago....you rarely had ANY comments....yet you kept writing. A true GloryHog would have bailed early in the 'game' and started saying what they though people WANTED to hear! Nope....you just kept writing the Truth....and our desperation for relief from the Hells we live(d) in steered us to find you....and what you offer. Thank God.

People are stoopid.....and Ns Suck....and Anna rocks. Get over it...peckerheads!

Sister Renee said...

Anna, You couldn't have said it better. I'm torn between yelling "You go, girl!" and laughing my fool head off that anyone on earth actually thinks so much of themselves that NOT commenting on YOUR blog is going to make the slightest bit of difference to you. Or to any of us, for that matter. How very narcissistic! They sure showed you!

I really appreciate you pointing out that after going no contact with your own parents and sister, what could the disapproval of a total stranger, or anyone less closely related, possibly mean? I have often thought this very thing. But it seems to be a difficult concept for the Ns to grasp. Why is it that people who think they have something of importance to say don't just write their OWN blogs?

You made my day with this one. Next time I hear from an N who thinks their criticism or disapproval matters and has nothing constructive to contribute, do you mind if I borrow some of your thoughts?

Kimberley said...

Anna,

Yeah, you're "pretentious" all right...*exaggerated eye-rolling*

Give me a big frikkin break!

You are the polar opposite of pretentious, and only a person who has read your blog, tracking back to the beginning of its inception in an effort to fully understand your experiences, your direction, your unwavering stance towards the utter damage caused by MNs, would "get this".

Me thinketh the dudeth thou protests too mucheth...aka projection?

What a sad, lame, pathetic, arrogant attempt to try to "hurt your feelings" or "set you straight!" As if!

It's also quite insulting to say that your devoted readers are nothing but spineless idiots who worship you.

So incredibly far from the truth as to not even exist.

I swear, Ns are totally oblivious to the concepts of respect, humility, admiration, compassion, common decency and the most important of all.....love.

You're right, Anna...they really DO suck.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anna - great blog entry today. Personally I love to read your blog because you are a firebrand and reading here really energizes and revitalizes me.

Sure I don't necessarily agree with every single thing, but I know you would respect that interpersonal space where we all reserve the right to make up our own minds because who knows better than us?

Dear Kathleen - your post about your late husband was so moving. You talked so much about all he gave to those around him, but I am sure as an ACON that you gave him a wonderful gift too - you saw his beautiful heart and real value. Heaven knows I almost killed myself as a teen when only Ns and minions were close to me, always telling me how worthless and awful I was. To be valued is priceless and restores the will to live.

Last I wanted to share what I have told myself since starting the climb out from the enmeshment: "Reality is your best friend."
-E-

KirstenK said...

Anna,
Your blog has done more for me than years of therapy and reading every self-help that I've been able to get my hands on ever could.
N-Dad literally tortured my siblings and myself into our early twenties and since then it's been all mind games. Since my Husband recommended your blog to me, I have gathered the strength to go no contact with N-Dad, N-Sister and limited contact with N-Mom. I am the happiest I've ever been and am defending myself for the first time in my life. Being a Christian, I always took whatever they did and kept quiet. Now, they have a hellion on their hands and they don't know what hit them. I am empowered. You are making a difference. Thank you!

Kathleen said...

Just a heads up --
I googled some phrases directly from the Comments section -- and I got NO hits. Seems they are private. I was nervous because I cut and pasted dirctly from SIL's email to me.

HOWEVER -- when the comments move to the bottom of Anna's home page after her post, then they seem to be quite searchable on google.

So no more ocpying and pasting for me!! LOL

I like the carpet in this livingroom.

- Kathleen

Starting Over said...

Anna,

I love this article. When I grow up I want to be just like you! I just don't understand why after all the years of abuse that I don't have more guts to truly say what I mean to the people that hurt me. I love the character "House" and I just figured out he is my alter ego. I think I have been so brainwashed by religion saying you have to be a nice girl and having guilt put on me by people who were really at fault. I realized if there was such a thing as a narcissist magnet, my name would be on it. Anna, how did you get to the point you are now? I so admire your strength. Thank you so much.

Anonymous said...

Anna Is your husband handy? Cuz I think you need to build an addition to fit us all in!!:o)
I'll move to the lovely carpet and let another sister sit on your comfy couch!! And maybe I'll even give it up to the brother I never really had!!

Kathleen said...

Thank you all for making me feel welcome here. It really does feel good to spill my guts about THEM, and it helps prevent me from breaking N/C.

I know that Ns are never grateful, but my one SIL goes even beyond that. Whenever DH and I did something FOR HER, not only would she not say thank you, she even complained we didn't do enough!! Anyone else N do that?

DH and I bought two units of timeshare in a state between our home state and the ILs' home state. He didn't see them much and we thought it would be a nice way to see his FOO and yet not have to entertain them at our home, as we had in the past.

So we invited all his siblings. Their unit would sleep 6, have a jacuzzi full kitchen and laundry, big screen TV, DVD player, fireplace, stereo system right in the private unit. To share among all the units was an indoor pool, an outdoor pool, movies, golf course, tennis court, volleyball court, and planned excursions. In the area is an historic district FREE. It's a tourist area and there are some attractions that would cost.

SIL has never invited us to her home and yet we have had her son twice, each time for a week (because MOM SAID). We invited all the siblings -- and only one BIL and his wife came.

After DH died my SIL wrote me a nasty email and she said "And you invited us to XXXX and it wasn't a FREE vacation. It was only a free place to stay."

This is the f**ked up logic with which I've dealt with that family. And that's a minor one.

That was logic I didn't even respond to.

Thanks for letting me vent.

- Kathleen

Katherine Gunn said...

Kathleen... Oh, yeah!! My NMom... well, on 2 occasions, I went to great trouble and research to find something for (once for Mother's Day, once for birthday). I didn't mind doing it. I was getting her something she had been saying for years, with great longing, that she wished she could have. something out of print from her childhood. When I gave theses items to her, she didn't even smile. She casually said, "oh, thanks," like it was no big deal, laid them aside and looked like she was disappointed.

Hmm... maybe she was. She couldn't use the story of losing this item when she was a child anymore....

Kimberley said...

Kathleen,

Yeah, you mentioned the vacation incident before and it was so repugnant for me to contemplate, so I remembered.

And as Anna has written on many posts here, Ns are 100% all consuming, all attention wanting, all selfish.

They are like a hungry ghost; never satisfied with what they have, always and forever wanting more, more, more....

As you are a gentle, loving woman trying to understand their absurd power motivations is impossible.

Normal, mentally healthy folks just don't work that way.

No Contact is the ONLY way to recover your spiritual peace & joy.

I've learned it now I'm living it.

btw--reading all the comments that rigorously support Anna is so endearing to me.

Anna, you have some tough, fierce cyber friends, ya know? You have helped tremendously in that area.

Like attracts like, birds of a feather flock together and all...

:)

Kathleen said...

Katherine,
In the previous blog you had made a comment about your mom being real proud that no one can play "mind games" on her. I bit my tongue -- but I did want to comment. I bit my tongue because, well, she's your mom. You can say whatever you want about her, but doesn't mean than anyone else can.

So -- I'll take a breath, hope not to offend -- but when you said that she claims no one can play mind games with her, I wanted to say "Well, they'd have nothing to play with!"

Kimberly, LOL!! As I've said, I never spent a lot of time with them. But every visit and phone call was N-saturated. I'll have to be careful about posting repeats!! LOL

This is one incident, where SIL basically claimed he was p*** whipped, and I'm unsure about posting it. I want to word it so it's not too lengthy.

Anna,
I just have to ask you. Were you always a bit of a "fighter," or strong-willed? I've always been -- but I've just been so different around the ILs. I loved DH, thought their behavior was so bizarre it MUST BE my perception. Is that how it is with your own family? You know, it's MOM so you kinda' react differently to her but not take shit from anyone else??

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Anna,

I read this piece and then re-read it substituting Narcissist for the word fear. I'm not sure about your blog policy for quoting others, but here goes...

Excerpted from "The Secret of Letting Go," Rev. Edition, Llewellyn, 2007

The Secret to Letting Go of Every Fear - By Guy Finley

Are you afraid of some condition in your life? Here's a life-transforming secret: that seemingly scary condition, whatever it may be, is not the problem. It is your reaction that is fearful. This is why if you will become conscious of your condition instead of afraid of it, you will change forever your relationship with fear.

It is only within this special kind of inner-relationship that there is real safety, because now you are interacting with fear in an entirely new way. You are no longer letting it dictate to you how to act or what to do. Instead, you are aware of the fear. You are learning to quietly observe and study it. And, each day, as you discover something new about the strange and shaky nature of your own fearful reactions, they begin to lose their power over you.

Why? Because you are at last seeing them for what they have always been: unintelligent mechanical forces. You are slowly becoming stronger than they are because by seeing them as they are -- not as they would have you see them -- you have helped yourself to climb above and outside of their influence. This self-insight is the difference between trembling through your life and being in command of it.

To be consciously afraid means that you know you are frightened, but at the same time you know that these very fears, as real as they may seem, are not you. And no wrong reaction can keep you captive once you begin to see it for what it is.

Fear is, and has always been, nothing but a self-limiting reaction that we cling to in the darkness of our present life-level, having mistaken it for a shield of self-protection. But, just as the faintest of early morning sunlight can dispel the night-long darkness, so does the smallest of insights into a persistent fear lead to letting it go.

You can prove this powerful principle to yourself anytime you want. Just dare to proceed even while being afraid. But remember, your new aim isn't to be courageous or to try and act strong in the face of fear. No. We've seen that this won't work. You simply want to be more curious about your frightened thoughts and feelings than you want to believe in them.

If you will follow this simple but higher instruction, not only will you start to see these habitual reactions that have been keeping you scared and running, you'll actually start seeing through them. This is where the real miracle occurs.

Each new insight into the actual nature of these negative reactions removes some of their power over you. And their loss is your gain. You are stronger now and you know it. You also know this new strength will never fail you because it isn't just the temporary appearance of a bold opposite. This new strength of yours is the absence of an old weakness.

-JR-

Anonymous said...

"Whenever DH and I did something FOR HER, not only would she not say thank you, she even complained we didn't do enough!! Anyone else N do that?"

Every Christmas my grown N sister would pout, slam doors, hide in her room, etc. because she hated EVERYTHING she got. I used to spend hours and money I didn't have hunting for that magical gift that would actually please her. After a particularly nasty holiday, I decided I would rather sh*t in a box and wrap it than ever go to the trouble and expense for her again.

Anna Valerious said...

"Whenever DH and I did something FOR HER, not only would she not say thank you, she even complained we didn't do enough!! Anyone else N do that?"

They ALL do that.

Billie said...

At the top of my long list of things I like about your blog is the fact that you know yourself...I'm getting better about knowing myself and this blog has alot to do with it. Thanks.

Katherine Gunn said...

Kathleen, you're fine. I laughed.

LadyCoyote said...

Billie, you took the words right outta my mouth!
Rock on, Anna!

Anna Valerious said...

Katrina,

The last email you sent me was from that invalid email address so my email response was returned. I need a valid address.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Katherine Gunn's heartwarming tale of her Nmom receiving gifts and not appreciating them at all...reminds me of my N-exhusband.

When I would get him presents or/and a card for the normal holidays, birthday, X-mas, anniversary etc. He would just sit there, I'd hand him the gift, he'd put it down on the end table or floor (without opening it) and continue watching tv. I'd say aren't you going to open it? He'd say, "I'll open it later."

No thanking me or feigning excitement, just basically ignoring the gift.

Now imagine this with our son, then 10 years later, 2 daughters. Their dad not caring that we were giving him something nice. They would look confused and hurt. How come daddy doesn't want to open our gift?

As far as his presents to me...? What presents? We may have gone out for my b-day or anniv. to EAT (something for him?) maybe 5 times in 15 years of marriage. Normally he would ignore my b-day or anniv. Valentine's Day...What's that?

I love this (this was already after I realized he was a total co------er, so my feelings weren't hurt.)

A few days before my b-day he said to me, "I have a really great surprise planned for your b-day." I showed polite interest,"Oh, nice." On my b-day, nothing, not even a happy birthday said to me.
So I wait 2 days later and ask him, "You said you had something for my b-day...?" He says, "It didn't work out." End of story. I called my sis and we laughed our asses off about what an ass he is!

He had pulled that trick more than once in the marriage.

Christmas, he would buy the most expensive gifts on his siblings' lists for them. For me, nothing. One X-mas he talked up the gift he bought me that I would just love...Pooh Bear slippers. Our 1 and 3 year old daughters liked them. I have never expressed a love for Pooh Bear. WTF???

One year he mentioned not having enough money to buy X-mas gifts for our kids. I happened to tell my sis, then she told 2 of our brothers and they all gave me some money for gifts for my kids. THEN on X-mas..."it" had all these expensive gifts for his siblings.

Obviously, I realized how he was regarding "no" gifts for me...especially after the first few times. Therefore I never asked or showed any hurt. How could he get his narcissistic supply from me when I showed no emotion? What was the point? I didn't care anymore...what reaction did he want? I thought they fed off of pain, hurt feelings, blood....? I gave NOTHING.

I would love to have some insight on this if anyone has had the same experiences.

Thanks Anna, for all you do...telling it like it is. We are not alone. Or crazy.

God bless and kick the trash to the gutter...then set it on fire and sprinkle Holy Water on it.

Colleen

Kathleen said...

Colleen,

He says, "It didn't work out."

Could you just see his face if you replied "Oh, what? The marriage?"

- Kathleen

Dave Cornutt said...

Wow, Anna. I just discovered your blog yesterday, and for the past day I've scarcely been able to tear myself away from it. Reading this has explained so many things for me. I don't have any N relatives (at least none that I have regular contact with), but I've had some run-ins in the past. In my first job out of college, I found myself working in a situation where I had both an N boss and an N co-worker whom I was required to work closely with. That job lasted about eight months, before said N boss got me fired for "disloyalty". The amusing bit is that he didn't even have the nerve to tell me personally -- he left a termination notice on my chair, for me to find when I came back from lunch. I was young and naive then. Truthfully, I never fully realized that they were N's until I read your accounts of your mother.

I've long known what MN was, from a clinical standpoint. But until I read your blog, I never really "got" it. I get it now. You're doing a great job, and keep telling it like it is.

Anonymous said...

Hey Kathleen, you should have seen his face when he received the divorce papers after I filed. He never thought that I would.

He walked over to me with a confused look on his face, "What's this, it came in the mail?"

I matter of factly replied, "Oh, those are the divorce papers I filed last week. I saved up from the grocery money so I could have enough for the filing fee."

He was speechless, for once. His face showed confusion, bewilderment. Oddly enough, he didn't fly off into a rage like usual. But HEY, I told him for the previous 2 years that I wanted a divorce. (Long story)

He later told my sis that he never thought I'd do it. She told him, "Why would she want to stay to be treated like crap?"

God bless all of you who are free of your Narcissist. We are rooting for the rest of you to be free. Anna V. keep the truth coming for us all.

Kick the trash to the curb.

Colleen

Anonymous said...

I have a friend, not an N. Sometimes, though, she's a bit testy and snappish.
She hadn't been well, but is much better now.

I was with her and we ran into a mutual aquaintance, who inquired how my friend had been feeling.

My friend was rude -- snapped something about "wishing people would mind their own business." This other poor woman started apologizing, thinking she had somehow put my friend on the spot!! It's not like she said "Hey, heard you got AIDS. Who have you been sleeping with?" It was a polite "Heard you were ill, how are you?"
Wow.

So I waited a few days and it really bugged me. I called the polite woman and told her she did NOTHING WRONG, that my friend was out of line, and don't apologize for being nice. She was quite surprised and said "Well, I didn't mean to make her uncomfortable. I only...."

And I cut her off. I said "You don't have to defend BEING NICE."

She thanked me, told me she had been hurt by the sharp comment by my friend, told me she was having bad day and my phone call was just what she needed!

Felt good.

I'm not going to take abuse by anyone, especially an N -- and I've decided I'm not going to stand there and let someone else be abused either.

had it with my N sister said...

"I'm not going to take abuse by anyone, especially an N -- and I've decided I'm not going to stand there and let someone else be abused either."

That is exactly where I am at this point in life. I think that if I, or anyone else in my family, had stood up to my N sister years ago, she wouldn't have developed into the supreme N that she is, and maybe she would have hurt fewer people.

I've always hated conflict and always tried to please everybody, but no more. I don't seek conflict, but I'm not afraid of it either. I don't plan to ever put up with my N sister's wicked mouth again.

crazyyears said...

LOL....after a 48 hour "silence" (punishment I guess) my "friend" finally wrote me to say "no it had not got lost in the mail" but she had not sent the package.

I didn't respond to her first e-mail in a timely manner (after she waited two days to respond to mine...lol) so she sent it twice within hours! I saw them both when I did check my in-box.

Then she went into this HUGE tirade about how "busy" she has been and I could tell she was trying to make me feel bad for even asking. LOL...as if I can tell she was "busy" (we live in different cities now) by osmosis and how dare I ask. LOL!

What is so funny is this entire thing was intitiated BY HER ...not me and now she acts as if I am requesting this HUGE favor from her....and asking her to really put herself out for me. Like a freaking trip to the post office is just too much in her important and busy world.

She also wrote that she will "let me know" when she mails it. So this went from:

"I'm sending it today"...

to "I haven't had time to send it SO TODAY I'm really sending it (going to the post office)".....

to "it came back for not enough postage......I'm sending it again"....

to not mentioning it....

to "I'll let you know when I send it........".

You know the old saying "Don't call me I'll call you...." ???? hahahaha

I can remember standing in line for half an hour to send her a lovely Christmas present. But I guess "my time" is unimportant.

So I e-mailed her back and was very gracious and told her "no hurry" I just didn't want her to think I wasn't ackowledging it if she had sent it.

Then I concentrated on showing concern for how "busy" she had been.

I haven't heard from her since.

I am not a betting woman. Seriously hate to gamble...(I get that some people like it for recreation and all that's fine...but for me personally...it's like throwing my hard earned money down the toilet).

However, I'd bet much more then I can afford to lose I'll never see that package.

I don't care about the item...really, but it's funny watching how she manipulates around and makes excuses, once again, not following through and exemplifying her undependable nature.

I am grateful I never really "needed" her for anything.

I remember thinking the other day...I'd hate to be stranded on a lonely highway in the middle of the night and she be the only person I could call. I would imagine she'd tell me she'd be RIGHT THERE...LOL...and then she'd fart, roll over and go back to sleep. hahahahaha

If I wasn't killed by an ax murderer waiting for her to arrive the next time I saw her she'd prolly not even mention it....however, if I inquired I would imagine she'd come up with a real good "excuse" why it was impossible for her to get there and the whole time try to make "me" feel bad for putting her in a position to even explain. Almost like...I should already "know".......

Me thinketh N's.....think you should be able to read their minds or at best "know", when they "let you down",.... (being they're so wonderful..if you don't believe it just ask them)they just must have a very good reason and asking is an insult to their character.

I find it bewildering that they feel that "saying" they will do something...(therefore showing "intent") is as good as doing it.

I'm seriously laughing here.....

Katrina said...

Had it with my N-sister,

Yes, I feel the same way about my sister jezebel. I've demonstrated to myself the strength to walk out of the area of her wicked mouth, over the past couple of years.

Especially this past holiday season, where she showed up a couple times at the same family place I was, in an intimate setting, with just a few other people. Everything that comes out of her mouth there was said strictly for effect. For MY ears. Cuz she never gets the chance to taunt me anymore, as I've gone NC. Cut her off from her drug of choice. With glee & joviality, she tried to suck up as much supply as she could, on these rare occasions of her finding me in her presence. Little digs--what she &/or her family had done (that me & mine weren't included in); "important" people that she's just ever
SO close to-- events that I missed out on--blah blah blah. Like I care. But of course, she believes she's sending darts right through my heart! LOL. Talking to the others in the room of course. Not directly to me. I gave her no response. No emotion. No supply. Timed my exit casually but quickly, so it appeared more like the boredom it actually was, but cut her off at the knees from her getting in any more juicy "exclusions" of me, in front of me. I said stuff like, "well if you guys are gonna stay (with our elders,etc) for awhile, I'll just go do some errands & be back in a couple of hours, so you can have a nice visit. Bye. "

You could really see the smoke coming out of her ears then!! LOL.
Katrina

Kathleen said...

Gotta' love those people who "offer" to do things for you! LOL

During DH's last week the ILs (8 of them) stayed at a local hotel. Every morning they would call and say "We're coming over. What do you need?" And every day I would say "Not yet. It's too early. I was up with DH all night."
"But we'll go to the store first. So what do you need?"

"Okay. I need cigarettes for me and whatever it is you all want to eat while you're here."

So they'd show up with a pack of butts, NO FOOD, and my SIL would complain how expensive cigarettes are up north as opposed to where they are down south.
Generous bitch.

Colleen,
Wish I could have seen his face! I realize my X is an N, but I chalked it all up to alcoholism. When he feigned an attempt at suicide, I had him committed. He called me from the psych ward and was shocked at my responses to him.

He had just "become a Christian." he wanted his Bible. I told him Gideon had been at the hospital already.

He wanted some clothes. I told him to wear 2 of the hospital gowns for modesty.

He wanted cigarettes. I told him he was in a hospital, don't be stupid.

Shocked the heck out of him. I wasn't his marionette!

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Comment for crazyyears:

Why oh why are you wasting your time on this so-called friend?

What are you getting out of it? Drop her like a hot potato and go do something beneficial for yourself. Just sayin'. It's a BIG aste of your precious time.

krl said...

Sigh.....I find myself 'worrying' about YouAlls.....wondering how many are NC....or taking decisive 'steps' in that direction....(or as close as possible...ie: those with shared children etc.)

I s'pose by now, all of you know that your present lives can't continue in the 'he said/she said' mode. Well? Actually, with and N...it CAN....f-o-r-e-v-e-r! I'm assuming we are on the same page about going NC and why....and that we are all here to validate what happened to each of us, to encourage, and to support each other in the process of extracting ourselves from the hells we have found ourselves in. ('Least...that's why I'm here...)

What's some GOOD things any one of you are doing for yourself....and/or the ones you love and love you? I'm not being smarty here....I would love to hear some changes that have happened to you after a while of NC....or changes that you MADE HAPPEN after NC. Any big 'revelations'? accomplishments? Lifestyle changes? Health changes? Just wondering.....I'm still in the early stages of NC....only a year.....and it would be great to hear from you 'long-timers' some benefits of NC....(besides the obvious wombat now out of your hair...!)

And...we don't have to talk about all this now....but throw it in with some of your comments along the way. Thanks for ALL of what you guys share....I read every single line....and then again. I cry, laugh, and 'steam' all the time. Thank you.

sumptos devil s advocate said...

Thank you for your response.

Regarding your mother searching for meaning behind the "Wizard of Oz," has she ever come across this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz

crazyyears said...

Dear Annonymous,
Thanks for your comment.

Well basically for all intents and purposes I have kicked her to the curb. I have a full life and am doing well.

The only reason I bring it up here is because N's have a way of making you feel like EVERYTHING is "your fault".

I don't know if I was raised by an "N" but my mom had some pretty selfish and narcissistic tendencies and she too was very controlling. I wasn't even allowed to "feel" a certain way without her approval at times.

When one is told over and over...during the early years...how their "feelings" are WRONG....and yet they still have those feelings....they tend to take all the blame for their negative "feelings" onto themselves even in future relationships. They invalidate THEMSELVES.....

Although I have listed some very narcissistic tendencies about my friend.....I still feel "wrong". My logic tells me I am not wrong...that she needs to be dumped....but that part of me that is hard wired into my brain tells me that I should JUST ACCEPT bad treatment. That I somehow "deserve" it...and even feeling bad about "bad treatment" is wrong as well although there is nothing I can do about feeling bad about it. I tried not to feel bad about it...but my LOGIC tells me I'd never treat anybody this way so why am I being treated this way? So...my emotions tell me because I deserve it. So round and round.........being raised by an N or a very selfish parent (whom children look up to and adore and depend on when they are small) leaves a terrible mark.

Funny thing is...N's seem to hone in on this. They will cross the line....you'll accept it....cross it again....you'll accept it again (because you've been hard wired not to trust your feelings because the N parent(s) told you your feelings are "wrong")...until they totally devalue you and all under the guise of "love".

And so I discovered this board.

I was seeking "validation"...and I got it. :o) Something "N's" refuse to give unless there is something in it for them. It could be ANYTHING ...but there must be something in it for them.

A very wise person told me once two things.

Number 1: Better one big hurt and get it over with and start to heal...then a lifetime or even years of putting up with an abusive person.

Number 2: Giving 50/50 in a relationship is no good. Everybody is always keeping score and will stop at 50% and wait and see what's being done for them. The thing to do is GIVE 100%....110...if you have it in ya. BUT...the moment you see 100% is not being given back....cut out. No keeping score.

We all get that niggley little feeling when we know we've been screwed. Pay attention to it...cut out.

Easier said then done though for those of us who were raised to believe we ARE ALWAYS WRONG.

However, you are right.....and I'm working towards that. Just give me time....I've left these types before and I'll do it again.

Funny thing is....although I logically "know" this person has no more feelings for me then her refrigerator (which is obviously malfunctioning at the time...lol)my emotions scream out to be cared about.

Being raised in the "N" enviornment...I guess I am constantly seeking the "approval" of the "N" parent. I love my mom...I love my friend.

Although I logically "know" that my friend doesn't love me....never did...that doesn't change my "love" for her. It hurts. :o(

I don't sit around and obsess over it...I get on with my life as I always have. But...it still hurts.

Anna has told us repeatedly how she has gone NC with her mom and sis. However, I am sure, that although by now she is "used" to it,....it also came with a huge emotional price for a time. To finally come to the realization and reality...that two people she loved (and still does)...are not capable of loving her. That they have proved to her OVER AND OVER ....she is no more then a blender or a toaster to them...doesn't change "her" feelings of love. It hurts....

It hurts....sometimes so bad...that in the early stages of going NC...one is almost willing to put up with it because they do care about the person they are
leaving.

Give me time........

It's not something that can change over night. I KNOW logically this person is an "N"....or at the least an extremely self centered and selfish person. But emotionally......I feel "wrong".

Aravis said...

That is a marvelous tagline for the most helpful website devoted to narcissism, sociopaths and other toxic flotsam of humanity I have seen. Anna, you surely must be a PhD sociologist. I found this site about three weeks ago and have spent much of the past 21 days reading and re-reading all of the posts and comments going back to 2006. My family of origin is exactly like the Mob, except without their financial successes. Also, there are some things the Mafia Just Won't Do, which is certainly not true of my relatives. NC has been great - I achieved it 14 years ago, sort of by accident, when I moved 2000 miles away for a job. I highly recommend this technique for anyone who does not want to "officially" go NC. I "officially" went NC with some of my relatives 10 years ago. and IT IS SO GREAT ! Also, I'd like to put in a plug for the moving far away bit if you have children. Protecting children from contact with MNs and their co-abusers is as critical for a child's healthy upbringing as medical care, good schools, and nutritious diet and exercise. My (not-N) sister's kids are the control group - she moved next door to the Nparents and lives firmly within the Bubble. Anyway, thanks Anna and all of you wonderful posters - I know now I am not alone.

Nancy said...

Dear krl,
"I'm still in the early stages of NC....only a year.....and it would be great to hear from you 'long-timers' some benefits of NC...."

I am going into three years of NC with my MN mother and sisters. The first year was pure hell - definitely a very painful time of my life. I have been left with the weight of this troubled family resting on my shoulders. I did nothing EVER to them - except refuse to continue playing the family role that I was assigned. They are a MOB family and I have even traced this mentality back over 100 years in my mother's family. It was very enlightening and interesting. The comfort and discomfort of being away from them comes in waves. Anna's posts help a lot with this - when in doubt, I pull up a relevant post and I am back in the real world again. NC means no more breaking open the wounds that are healing. I sleep so much better at night and other physical ailments related to stress and tension have disappeared. After the first year I finally had the energy to do something I always wanted to do. I took a quilting course at a local shop and it has opened a new world for me. I think my energies were being so zapped by my MN family that I was missing out on my own life. The most important thing that happened though at this quilting course was that I met a wonderful lady who has become a surrogate mother/older sister to me. She is a widow, 16 years older than me, who lives with her older widowed sister. They have adopted me. I spend a day a week with them - quilting, planning and sharing new projects and life ideas. Most of all I am learning how real sisters interact with each other - something I never could attain with my own sisters. My empty space inside that never had a real mother is slowly being filled. And the bonus is that while this is happening I am making some pretty heirloom quilts for my sons to pass on to their own families some day.
Krl, it just takes time. It will always bother me that my family does not care, but it is them - not me. They are dangerously ignorant and beyond hope. I look for hope now in other places.
I wish you the best.

Katherine Gunn said...

crazyyears,

I know exactly how you feel. I still fight it, too. It does hurt. It is hard. It is worth it - and so are you.

Anonymous said...

Crazy years, I'm the one who posted to cut off your friend. Just read your reply and it hurts to think of where you are, I've been there.

IMO, once we're aware of how and why we do things, we then have a fighting chance of changing and healing. That's why Anna's blog here is so critically important.

You wrote, "Although I logically "know" that my friend doesn't love me....never did...that doesn't change my "love" for her. It hurts."

Please don't confuse need with love. I truly believe it's impossible to really love someone who is evil and constantly harms you, at least once you realize what's going on. Such "love" may be more of a need to heal the pain within you from being rejected and played with like a mouse. I think once you come to realize the depth of evil and depravity in these people you will recoil from the idea of loving them. Just my opinion, based on my own experience, I have a N sister and father, NC with both. It hurt when I went NC and I pined for their presence in my life, I loved them, so I thought, but after time I realized it was a fantasy I'd conjured up of who I wanted them to be and not who they truly were. I loved who I wished they had been.

Can you really love someone who is evil? Be careful, call a spade a spade and deal with them accordingly, they use such emotions to do further harm, they LOVE it. Be wary, go NC and watch your life improve. Focus on the damage they do, not how much you think you love them. From such as these, turn away. Best of luck.

Kathleen said...

Krl,
What an wonderful suggestion you made -- to ask us to list what we do for ourselves. So many people don't understand that when DH died, along with him went all the plans and goals we had. I was left with a blank future. I'm sure you can understand that.

So that bugged me. I wanted to maybe take some kind of adult class at a local college -- not academic. Something fun, like flower arranging or something. But with my work schedule, my DD home, housework, etc., couldn't do it.

So I got to thinking several weeks ago What Am I Doing for Me or a Ministry? And someone in my prayer group reminded me how much of a ministry I have raising my child. And God has told me recently that today has enough problems, stop worrying about the future.

So I've made more of an effort to do things with my DD. Tonight we'll watch some movies, have popcorn. I ordered tickets for a play. I just spend more time listening to her.

And it's very important I know how blessed I am, stop focusing on my problems. I've baked more cookies for an elderly widow, made dinners recently for a widower with 5 children and a friend who had a heart attack. I've made it a point to contact girlfriends, chat on the phone.

This sounds like I'm such a wonderful, giving person -- but that's not it at all. This helps ME. This helps ME keep things in perspective, keeps from feeling sorry for myself, keeps me from complaining "why don't they call" because I DO THE CALLING.

I've also relaxed some standards. Tonight I have frozen pizza in the oven. DD has a microwavable entree. That's not something I ever did before -- but heck, it's movie night! I can't always make a "proper" dinner and THAT'S OKAY. Sounds silly, but that was a major hurdle for me.

And IT'S OKAY that I have one spot in the kitchen that accumulates mail, bills, flyers, etc. The table. We use the dining rooom anyway! LOL Again, sounds silly, but it was something that truly depressed me -- I never could get all that paperwork sorted at the same time. And now, that's okay. Better to spend the time with my daughter.

I've learned I can have a wonderful prayer time as I'm walking the dog! And reading my bible can be fit in before I go to work IF I don't check my emails first! LOL

In short, I'm getting more organized, more giving, more compassionate, less self-pitying -- and the dog is being walked more often!!

Still don't have any future plans or goals yet, except trying to get DD1 thru her next 2 years while trying to prepare for DD2's college expenses (she's in 8th grade).

Then, when they're on their own, who knows? But I'll have done my job, and that's about all I can handle right now.

- Kathleen

crazyyears said...

Thanks all for your comments :o)

Yeah, we love who we wish they were or thought they were. We loved a fantasy.

We loved the warmth we created in our own minds (with their help...lol) and it was fuzzy and feel good. It's the human condition to want to "feel good" and feel a kinship to others.

So....we create more then what it is....look past the red flags (or blame ourselves for them) until the inevitable fall.

I was an idiot. I've been one before especially with men! LOL!

I don't miss her...there is nothing to miss except a bunch of lies that I created as the truth. I miss the feeling of "friendship" I thought I had with another human being. That's all.....I miss the fantasy. I simply attached a body to that fantasy...so I thought it is her I miss when the truth couldn't be over looked any more.

I need to live in "truth"...I must begin to live in "truth" and then I'll never ever have to worry about getting caught up in the lie again.

The truth really does set us free...doesn't it? yea...

:o)

Kathleen said...

They're just so not -- normal. So not natural.

it's not NORMAL to trash your child's room. It's not NORMAL to tell a widow how rotten her husband was. It's not normal to be disinterested when your child is sick. It's not normal to refuse to comfort a small, hurting child.

It's so bizarre that these Ns really could have had good relationships, could have had nurturing relationships, could have had FUN with family and friends. They pretend that everything is fine ahd choose fantasy over reality. But they don't do it like perhaps a mentally handicapped adult would choose fantasy -- they do it with evil intent and malice.

I just don't want them around me or my children.

I don't know what will happen to them in the end. Maybe God just hands them over to their own desires, their own depravity. I know He doesn't me handing my children over to them for any kind of relationship.

- Kathleen

krl said...

RE: Comments by 'Nancy' and 'Kathleen' today on PostNLife

Thank you both so much! I related to the 'ups and downs'....and 'after a year, having enough energy to....'. It really HAS taken about a year for me to back up...slow down....regroup...and ponder 'what now?' This stuff can really sap ya...ya know?

Best thing for me right now...is working on having little or no 'stress'....or 'obligations'....working at having as SIMPLE a life as I can possibly muster. (Even changed my job again...so that I can 'punch in' and 'punch out'...and not have 'tomorrow' hanging over my head...) Getting caught up on movies and books....(although, I read book and watch movies much more critically now...thanks to Anna and all of you...) Sorting out years of crap and unfinished projects....all that. I'll be interested if there is a direction I'll lean in as I perk up.....but...actually? I'd be happy to do not a whole hell of a lot for a while. Love being a Gramma (Yaya) and baking those cookies....I miss gardening...all in all....feeling a LOT better! Walking quite often....doing a ladies' workout class a few times a week....I think my blood pressure is down.....uh...yeahyeah...I quit smokin' and drinkin'....(still miss the smokes though...)...Guess I couldn't have done the NoSmoking if Nmom was still in my hair.

I guess this all sounds pretty self-centered right now....but Lordee....I didn't HAVE a 'self' OR a 'center' ever since I can remember! Guess I'm 'testing' it out. Thanks for sharing. It means a LOT to me.

Kathleen said...

Krl,
I've really been giving your recent posts some serious thought.

You are building a house. I am building a house. And I've seen the "natural laws" of God clearly demonstrated.

In Psalms and Matthew and Proverbs and other places (I really stink at knowing exactly where verses are), we are told to build our house upon the rock. The foundation, deep in the ground, where no one can see it. It's not decorated or anything. it's hidden.

The Bible says "when the storm comes" and "when the floods come." They will come. Every house will go through a storm. But the house built on a rock will stand.

All of you raised by Ns were of houses built on anything but rock. Probably sand -- things shifted always to fit the N's agenda. And look at what has happened to those houses!! They HAVE fallen!! Look how many of you are N/C!!

But you get older and you move out, quite naturally. And then you build your own home.

I'm amazed at the verses I'm reading and how I can see God's hand. DH and I built a house on rock. We took seriously our role as husband and wife, as parents. Believe me, the storms have come. I've been at times mercilessly battered by the winds and rain.

MY HOUSE IS STANDING!! We never lived on plastic -- and my finances are okay. We never let work or our own desires interfere with our parenting, whether ir was homework or comforting a sick child at 3 a.m., or telling bedtime stories even when we would have liked to be watching TV and relaxing. We always encouraged our children to be the best they could. We were their cheerleaders.

And my 2 daughters LOVE each other! My oldest is away at college and I KNOW she isn't drinking and partying. My house is standing.

And you, Krl, are now building your new house -- as is everyone else here. Build it on the ROCK. The storms and winds and rain and floods are inevitable. And when it's over, the house of the wicked will fall and great will be that fall!

And YOUR HOUSE will stand.

I do see my ILs' house crumbling -- the financial turmoil because of credit cards, the lack of love between the siblings, the marriage that is falling apart. It's sometimes scary to see the consequences of what we call "bad choices."

There was no foundation.

So build your house, Krl!! Build your soul and spirit and psyche on TRUTH. There may be some broken windows or tiles loose after the storm -- but you will stand.

God bless you!!

- Kathleen

Barbara said...

I just got banned from a group supposedly for abused women (freetobitch.com) for speaking my mind. SUPPOSEDLY that what's it was for, lol.

Of course I was seen as the bad guy and interpreted as "attacking" other members when I did no such thing. One Admin said some pretty vile things about me. Whatever, I know my own mind and its done nothing to change it.

So now these women can go back into denial and hoping their Ns will heal or change and discussing lint removal & cookie recipes instead of the reality for some of us of moving forward in the aftermath of an N.

GREAT post Anna. How do these people really think this bothers us at all? LOL

Anonymous said...

uuuggh...can I come in the livingroom and complain for awhile? I haven't posted in awhile becaseu things have been quiet. I've been nc with nm and variuos n-sibs and golden child for over a year. It was rough, but lately I've have A LOT of peace. I posted months back about their pathetic bahavior at a funeral, in front of my dear widowed Uncle. Well...of course, they never call Uncle for holidays, luch nothing. BUT, my uncle called me tonight to tell me my NM and her golden child want to take hiim out to lunch, not to be NICE, but because the 60 year-old golden child thinks he has been misunderstood! My Uncle called me to refresh his memory of the funeral (because it is hard to believe how they acted..it was that bad), and now he has to deal with them and their contorted stories and shit shovelling! UUGHH.

I feel like I am in remission from cancer--silly me, I thought I was cured--only to have another flare-up! I have read how you all warned that they keep trying, and it is only becaseu my uncle comes to me for holidays and because I have a relationship with him that they even CARE what he thinks!

I am pissed at them, but pissed at misself that I am shaking again from their sickness. They just can't let it be. ever. At least my Uncle finally understands why I am NC. He is not the type to say "I don't want to have lunch with you." I wish he could because god only knows what awful things they will say about me.

Ok, I will get my feet off your coffee table now. KRL, Katrina, Anna... can you get me a cup of tea please?

And I thought I was only a reader of posts!

Katrina said...

Anon 8:20,

Coming right up! I've got some GREAT Irish breakfast tea--Barry's.
Mmm mmm--it's the best!!! I'll bring enough for everybody!

I almost gagged at the 60 YR OLD golden ass, demanding an audience of your poor widowed uncle. Of course, the NM mom wants in too. NOT to see how your uncles's getting along alone--but to manipulate how he views THEM!

So revolting, & yet--so typical.

Your words, "they just can't let it be. Ever." sum it all up quite succinctly. They can't. They won't. Ever.

Only WE can.

You say it's been rough, but lately you've had a lot of peace.

THAT is the proof in the pudding.

In my life,I often, sometimes at least once a day, must make the CONSCIOUS decision to steer my thoughts AWAY from these people, even in so far as their mere EXISTENCE in the world. And tell myself my husband, children, & I exist in a world where these people have never even been born--I'm able to take a deep breath and step back into my OWN reality. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with THEIRS, as they don't exist. They NEVER existed. And I get to put a smile on my face, & do the next thing I would do in MY life, where they have no bearing, & no power.

Is this easy? SHIT, no!! Is it worth it? Oh yeah, Baby!!! It is
SOOO worth it.

I say it's often a CONSCIOUS action,because these people are not through with ME yet. They think they can continue to play their cat & mouse games with me indefinitely. What they just don't realize is that I am through with THEM. Just as your NM & her golden schmuck think they can find yet another way to get a message to YOU-not directly, but through your uncle-(the cowards)-
I still have the same BS come at me from various directions. They THINK they still have access to me because they STALK me-through mutual acquaintances etc. They just can't let go!

What these cretons will never fully grasp is that WE ARE THROUGH.
We actually CAN get to the point where we see them as invisible. The power they once had over us is just a deflated balloon lying pathetically on the floor. Just nothingness. If they ever actually COULD wrap their head around that(which they never will, because they're NARCISSISTS)--they would only be incensed & try to PUNISH us into caring about them in SOME way. We are just not ALLOWED to NOT CARE about them AT ALL!! HA!

It IS a cancer. In fact, I just used that exact word to describe it to another sib, that keeps trying to be a peacemaker. I think he kinda got it this time. Another sib today called me & apologized for trying to get us all in the same room to watch the Superbowl for our elderly father's sake. He told me he realizes they are ABUSIVE to me. He realizes it was always ME who reached out to THEM, & that they were the perps, & he understood while I was NC, & I should remain that way.That he never should've even brought it up & to please forgive his stupidity. Those are the 2 brothers I keep. And one sister. Out of 13 of us!

It absolutely IS a cancer, & it IS in recession. And when it flares up for me , I come back HERE, to Anna's blog, & look up her previous posts, & it gives me the strength to recall the reasons I keep myself & my family out of the way of this cancer.

And I remember that these people don't exist. They NEVER existed. Children did. That all shared a home for years, & did what we could to survive it. These grown people that are real, are not the fantasy people I believed I knew. THEY were the ones I loved. They weren't real. They never existed.

Stay strong. Don't waste energy worrying about this lunch plan. F*#@ what they have to say!! WHO CARES??!!! You're in a different place now....

Katrina

Anonymous said...

krl,

Re: Your post of Jan 30, 2009 8:38:00 PM - What are some good things we are doing for ourselves?

I hired a Personal Trainer. I know it sounds expensive, but I shopped around and investigated discounts through my work and the health insurance company so I'm pretty happy with the deal I got.

Anyway, NMom is vain. She was not pleased with my adult appearance. I clearly did not look the part of the role I was meant to play. Here I am in the hospital just having undergone 18 hours of labor and a c-section and she asks the doctor when am I going to start losing weight. The doctor snapped, "It took her 10 months to put it on so it will take a while to get it off!" Then I had to hear all about how mean and nasty my doctor was, how her doctor was better, and how I should start seeing him. It upset her so much that I made no effort to lose any weight. I flat ignored every insult/demand/etc and threw away every bottle of diet pills she "lovingly" gave me. I was hurting myself to get under her skin. Twisted, I know, but at least I realized it! I've also come to realize that I eat for emotional comfort. I'm thinking of buying a punching bag with my tax refund.
-JR-

krl said...

Thank you for any and all comments referencing one of my emails and questions....It really helps and encourages me a lot! I get only sporadic reception for internet connection...and work weirdo hours...so iffen I don't comment back...that's why!

Coupla days off soon...will read in further depth...You are all great! Hang in there....me too...off to work...

Anonymous said...

"What are some good things we are doing for ourselves?"

I remain NC with the Ns in my life. I recently read on this blog that Ns will "test the waters to see how much they can get away with." It sent chills up my spine to realize how I had been set up by these bastards. I always thought of myself as a kind to others, happy go lucky person-and it made me a target for these predators. But as they say, knowledge is power, and it has strengthened my resolve to stay NC and to never let it happen again.

Since going NC, my life has improved by leaps and bounds. I realize that I'm a strong, capable person. I take time out of my day to do things that make me happy (painting, photography). I make a point to spend more quality time with my family and friends. Life is way too short for the lies, head games, and all of the BS that comes with being involved with a narcissist. Going NC was like having a huge weight lifted from my shoulders.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

When it comes to weight loss, you do it for yourself, not for others. That's what I had been told by an aunt years ago.

If Nmom says anything, ask, "What makes you think I'm doing this for you?" Sort of like in Ever After.

I'd have sold the diet pills. HEE!

Anonymous said...

Thank you. I am ashamed to say how long I let my N mother-in-law run all over me. I felt that I needed to keep the peace in my husband's family. You are helping me with this backbone I am growing. After all, when I had my son it was her who railed on about how SHE needed another granddaughter and not more grandsons. She was too busy to ever buy him a present. Nice welcome home with your baby.

Kathleen said...

LOL!! Did you tell her it was HER SON'S DOING that brought about a another male child??

Buy her a doll.

- Kathleen

Anonymous said...

Thank you Katrina~ You said just what I needed to hear. After reading your comments this morning, I went about my day with scarsely a thought of "the."

I am amazed by your statistic of having contact with only 3 sibs out of 13...I also come from a large family--7 of us. I am down to my final 2 (possibly 1...?uugh)sibs.I wonder if MN is more prevelant in large families?

You, Anna and all the other wonderful posters make me ffel so "normal;" it's wonderful having this site. It's a God send. Thanks Anna and everyone!

Anonymous said...

So what IS in a heart,

"If Nmom says anything, ask, 'What makes you think I'm doing this for you?'"

I am NC with NMom. If I ever did speak to her again the worst thing I could say was that I'm doing it for my husband. You see, if I'm not under her control I must be under "his" control. In her opinion I don't have two brain cells to rub together much less the ability to make life-changing decisions.

Gads, why did I wait so long to unload that total POS?

"Better late than never!"
-JR-

Dr T said...

Only a true narcissist would think that denying you the "pleasure" of their company or comments would be a punishment. As I keep telling my friend whose NPD wife tortures him with threats of abandonment, "YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY."

Love your blog. One of my readers just recommended it to me today.

Best,
Dr T
A Shrink for Men
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com

Barbara said...

"What are some good things we are doing for ourselves?"

While I applaud this sentiment - I just was 'kicked off' a board full of "abused women" who were more interested in the latest diet, lint removal and finding a new man than getting to the heart of the pathological person they were just involved with and how to make sure they don't fall victim again.

If we are to heal (I don't believe we ever completely heal - I think we ADAPT) from the N-parent... we have to peel the legacy-onion of abuse they left us with.

Don't fall into the trap of avoiding remembering and really discussing what was done to you and what you can do about it with "feel good" exercises.

Feel good psychology (doing good things for yourself) was popular in the late 80s and early 90s and led to more repression & denial than truly validating the abuse.

Just a teeny warning.