Wednesday, March 12, 2008

Angry with a Narcissist? Read On...

If you've done much reading here on my blog you've perhaps noticed that I focus on the "what" not the "why" of malignant narcissism. In other words, I focus more on what they actually do than how they became the way they are.

I am decidedly uninterested in the etiology of malignant narcissism. This is not because I'm an incurious person. This is because I recognize that we can never know to any degree of true certainty all the factors that went into the birth of evil. God refers to the "mystery of iniquity" rather than explain reasons for its existence, therefore it is very unlikely that we finite and mortal beings are better than God at divining the mystery of evil. To explain why evil is is to justify it.

I know that there are those who will disagree with this assertion, but it is true nonetheless. It is impossible to explain how evil came into being without, in some substantive way, lessening it. We assume when something is explained to our satisfaction that we've taken the mystery out of the puzzle. Its not evil...its the result of abuse. Its not evil...they have messed up chemicals in their brains. Its not evil...their genetics are at fault. Any explanation of the etiology of evil must discount the power of choice, free will, and personal responsibility. Period.

You don't have read much of Sam Vaknin's fanciful ideas of what creates a narcissist to see how he relieves himself of responsibility for what he is by his explanations. Mother, society, genetics, abuse, neglect. Never is Sam Vaknin ultimately to blame for choosing to be a parasitic life form. Because he feels he can explain how he, the narcissist, came to be...he doesn't have to believe he is evil. To explain the etiology of evil will, inevitably, explain it away. Who exactly is helped by explaining away evil? Do we actually make evil go away by saying it doesn't exist? Do we change evil doers by not calling them evil? No, we only succeed in making it easier for evil doers to continue their life of crime.

The psychology establishment is a prime example of how explanations for evil have been used to do away with the entire concept that evil even exists. Pretending they have the ability to find a root cause for the problems of people's souls, they have been willing to rationalize even the most base behaviors of humanity into simple, even justifiable, reactions to their circumstances. They must paste the corruption somewhere -- so they lay it on society at large in order to give a pass to the individual in the mis-guided belief that the individual's sense of shame somehow explains why he acts out. This helps no one but the evil doer. Society then has to suffer the predation of evil individuals even while bearing the blame for the evil deeds perpetrated upon it. Society is you and me. Are you really willing to bear this kind of responsibility for the acts of another over which you have no power to stop or persuade from his evil course? I'm not.

Evil behaviors and evil outcomes can become absolutely undeniable in their most egregious manifestations. So undeniable that even the psych community is forced to sometimes admit that evil exists. Yet, even so, they will expend super human efforts to find explanations for the unspeakable. They are so adverse to the idea that human evil exists, and that it is volitional, that they can become extremely creative at finding explanations. It seems that evil in our midst stirs up very powerful emotions in us. Thus, it can cause us to reflexively try to explain it away, at least in part, so we can settle our own internal maelstrom of emotions evoked by evil deeds witnessed or received. Many, especially Christians, try to calm their internal storm by looking for explanations in order to feel pity or compassion for the evil doer. (Notice, again, how we instinctively know that to explain evil will somehow lessen it or reduce its impact on us.) We want to feel good about ourselves, so we try to lessen the culpability of the evil doer so we can settle our own angry feelings. We think that our negative feelings about the evil doer is some kind of condemnation of ourselves rather than the perp. We need to get over that.

It is our discomfort with our own feelings which often drives us to search for a place of "understanding" because we hope that by understanding we will calm the savage seas of our own emotions. For various reasons people feel guilty for having negative feelings. Especially anger. Denying your anger, or trying to subvert it by "understanding" how the malignant narcissist became what they are is not going to get you where you want to go.

Your anger is not wrong. Your anger is a sign that you recognize the crimes which have been committed against you or those you love. Your anger is actually a healthy sign! Anger is an appropriate emotion in the wake of evil or injustice. Negative feelings are not inherently sinful or wrong. Emotions happen. Don't try to escape what you're feeling by denying or pretending it isn't there. Acknowledge it. What you do with your emotions is where right and wrong come into the picture. Obviously, being angry isn't justification for abusing someone or doing wrong ourselves.

I am of the firm opinion that certain things should outrage us. Evil acts should make us angry. It is an appropriate and reasonable response to injustice and malicious acts. It is a sign that you respect yourself (or others) when you rise up in outrage at egregious behavior. Acknowledge what you feel and don't be afraid of your own strong reactions to evil. Negative feelings should serve as a sign telling you that something is seriously out of whack. That is where your fore brain is supposed to come in. Emotions are not intelligent or mature. They are signals sent from primitive places in our brains. So what to do with them? Acknowledge they are what they are. Then, you apply your reasoning ability to the situation. What is the injustice? What can you do to deal with the situation to remove the threat? Is it time to bring in the law? Is it time to remove yourself? Don't be afraid of your strong reactions. Use them to motivate you to change the circumstance. Legally and morally.

Don't get side-tracked by your negative emotions into trying to understand the incomprehensible. You will not help the narcissist by "understanding" how he became malignant. You will not help yourself either. Again, this is because we can hypothesize from here to eternity but never know how evil was born. This is worse than wasted energy. Spending your finite time and energy trying to solve what can't be solved is only going to distract you from finding solutions to present day problems.

Don't fall for what passes for "truth" by the prescribers of false righteousness. They want peace at all costs. They are willing to overlook the crimes of abusers in order to keep things looking good on the surface. They want you to screw yourself by pretending someone didn't injure you, steal from you, slander you, etc. They demand you submit to bad treatment so they don't have to deal with anything as messy as your hurt or angry feelings at having been crapped on and screwed yet again. See what I'm saying? These people who condemn your negative feelings are demanding you put up with being raped. They are demanding your silence. In fact, in a real sense, they are piling on with the narcissist. They don't want to be inconvenienced by your justifiable reactions to evil deeds done to you or yours. Do not give moral weight to the opinions of someone who is only studying their own convenience and therefore willing to subvert justice in the name of a false peace or truce with evil.

Give up your quest to find peace at the cost of honesty. Be honest with yourself about what you feel. Attempts to lessen the guilt of the guilty is an illegitimate way to cope with your negative reactions to them. Accept the truth that a decent person should be angry and outraged at perverted and evil behaviors. Evil people create themselves. They stand before God Himself with no excuses for their evil deeds. He will strip away all their excuses in the final judgment and they will be forced to bear the full guilt for their choices. We should quit trying to be better than God Himself.

65 comments:

Anonymous said...

Actions speak louder than words. They are evil because they choose to do evil.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

I don't think anybody gets up in the morning and says, "I choose to be evil". There are factors that go into it, but there's a difference between explaining and justifying. Abuse/bullying/whatever might explain going on to do evil, but it doesn't justify it given that many abused people don't grow up to be evil. Of course, such a person will say, "well, that's because they're weak!" Or something to that effect, but they and those who side with them are the only ones who believe that.

There's no one reason for someone choosing to be evil, but many of the targets simply don't care why, and I don't blame them.

Anna Valerious said...

I don't think anybody gets up in the morning and says, "I choose to be evil".

Agreed. I have pointed out here before that evil people do not see themselves as evil.

As for abuse/bullying explaining why someone went on to become an abuser, not justifying it: I see your point. It doesn't explain much of anything, though, in my opinion. Too many people have been abused and not turned into abusers for the abuse explanation to be much of an explanation of anything. It always comes back down to personal choices. Someone who has been abused who then chooses to be an abuser is someone who has fallen infatuated with control and power. They abuse to gain that sense of power over another. That is, always, evil. In my opinion, a person who was abused, who knows what it feels like down to their marrow to be the victim, to turn around and do that to another person themselves...is a special kind of evil all its own.

Anonymous said...

Anna, this is a great post.
Those who are unwilling to acknowledge the evil of the N enable the N.
Talk to most people about what the N has done to you, and watch them becoming uncomfortable, and then try to "help" you by trying to give some alternative explanation for the actions of the N. That isn't helping, it's making things worse. But they are not trying to help you, only trying to make themselves feel more comfortable.
All they need to do to help is to just acknowledge what you say has happened and how you feel about it.
They don't even have to give their own views on the matter. But they should not try to lessen or alter what has happened just to make themselves feel better.
It is only when the N attacks THEM that they start to understand and acknowledge the evil.
The result of all this is that the victim soon finds that being ( rightly) angry about what has been done does not invoke the empathy of others, quite the opposite. This just puts more pressure on the victim who may even end up believing that they were at fault or that it didn't happen and to unknow the truth ( like the N does ) just so as not to make others uncomfortable.
Thank you Anna for this place where people know the truth.

nocaster said...

I have called my N father on his egregious behavior from time to time, especially if his behavior has been hurtful to me. His first reactions are always to wear me down by deflecting his wrong doing as my fault. It normally takes days if not weeks to convince him of his wrongdoing. One time I cut him off for an entire year. However, he always justifies his actions because of something his parents did to him...or something. In the end, it is never his fault. He is sorry I got hurt, not sorry that he hurt me.

I simply don't care why he acts the way he does. It doesn't mitigate my pain from his verbal abuses in any way. It has taken me 36 years to finally realize my father is an N. For years I felt my strained relationship with him was somehow my fault. It isn't. He is an N and there isn't anything I can do about it. How he got that way is of no concern to me because it does not change the fact that his behavior is off the scale abnormal.

I have been able to deal with him better now that I realize he is an N. That fact is no justification for his behavior. But at least I can understand why he does things from his own twisted frame of reference.

Anna Valerious said...

I have been able to deal with him better now that I realize he is an N. That fact is no justification for his behavior. But at least I can understand why he does things from his own twisted frame of reference.

I hope you saw the distinction I was drawing when I say we can never understand how the narcissist was created vs. understanding what the narcissist is today and how he behaves in the here and now. Those are two separate understandings. Absolutely, finding understanding that someone is a malignant narcissist and, therefore, being able to understand their twisted frame of reference is essential understanding. This is the kind of understanding that actually helps us. It is this kind of understanding that I attempt to bring in my blog pages. Please keep the two kinds of understanding separate. Understanding how they became malignant narcissists is essentially useless. Understanding what they are today and how they behave and are motivated...that type of understanding is essential for enabling us to escape their predation.

I simply don't care why he acts the way he does. It doesn't mitigate my pain from his verbal abuses in any way.

That is exactly my point. I am glad you see this as pragmatically as I do. But because not everyone sees this as we do....this post is for them. Some people have gotten tangled up in their negative feelings and don't know how to deal with them constructively.

holy water salt said...

I agree they are evil. IThat'swhat I blog on, the evil nature of psychopaths (aka malignant narcissists).

I do believe exorcism would help.
Though as teh Vatican exorcist says,some are just too far gone. It's that choice, pride.
But the Church today does not recognize evil, no wonder lay people tell us "to get over it" or make a million excuses.

nocaster said...

I hope you saw the distinction I was drawing when I say we can never understand how the narcissist was created vs. understanding what the narcissist is today and how he behaves in the here and now.

Oh yes, yes the distinction is clear. Any attempt to justify his evil actions would be tacit approval. In my experience, this is exactly what he wants. I have seen the very face of evil in my own father and it is frightening. This evil will manifest itself in a rage that knows few bounds. Shortly after his rage he will be as calm as a puppy and he can't figure out why anyone is upset with his actions. Why does he act like this? I don't know and I don't care any more.

Writer in Washington said...

Anna: This has been my continual problem. Thank you for addressing it. I have always tried to understand what makes people act evilly, and you are right, at the core I was just trying to get rid of my anger and resentment at them.

My husband cut-off contact with his N daughter, would not acknowledge her e-mails and cards, because he had warned her that if she continued her backstabbing campaign he would do that very thing. Of course, we have been villified because of it. "How terrible for a Father to not respond to his daughter and her "non-apologies", it has to be the new wife's fault--she is manipulating him." I'm sure you have heard similar stories to this. I have also experienced the discomfort that people have when you say that someone (stepchild or ex-wife) is evil. That word brings out incredible defensiveness in people, primarily because they can't deal with the evil in their own souls I think. Either way, Christian people are far too eager to pressure the victim for forgiveness than they are to address the fact that the perp is evil and should NEVER be forgiven.
I've noticed that people don't want to believe that teenaged kids make evil choices, although they are very ready to blame the MN mother they have or the "neglectful" father. I find that interesting, too. I would really like to hear from people who've experienced this from their child/stepchild, too.
My experience from "christian" people has always been that they are shocked at you for not forgiving and forgetting. Or they don't believe you when you describe some of their behaviors. Or they try to find excuses (poor girl, she must be feeling terribly threatened to do these things to you guys). Or they think you are imagining things, blowing them out of proportion, or misinterpreting things. This blog has been a lifesaver for me--to be accepted when I tell about these things is so incredibly valuable. I can't thank you (and all your contributors) enough!

Kelly said...

Well said Anna!
There is nothing wrong with being angry over abuses done to you. You need to use your anger to keep the boundaries and remind you why this person is evil.
Kelly

Writer in Washington said...

Anna, another thing that bothers me is that we have found more understanding and acceptance from non-Christian friends. They seem to "get it" while the Christians are--condemning and judgmental, there is no other word for it. Or misguided with "Oh you shouldn't blame the kids, its not their fault." That would hold up if they were little kids, but they were not at the time and certainly aren't now.

toni said...

Thank you, Anna, you are so right on with this. I am so glad to have found this blog at a time when I have been unable to find any real support as a victim of N's. In typical "support" groups it always comes down to others finding some reason the evildoer acts as they do and pointing that out to try to make the victim, as well as themselves, feel better. Apparently some people feel better when there is some kind of justification as to why the abuser victimizes them. I'm not one of those people, I just want to deal with what is happening as the reality that it is and to communicate with others who feel the same way. I am surprised how elusive that has been. This site is a breath of fresh air, thank you.

It is frustrating how trying to tackle problems or discuss issues that actually exist and cause great damage, can be twisted into something wrong. In general, if people express what Anna did, and attempt to get support, it usually gets turned around on them.

I don't know what to make of this, it is like layers upon layers of dysfunction and I find it very stressful and difficult to contend with. I don't know how to feel about the people who do the justifying, I think they are misguided at the least. If not for rare places like this, there is little support for people who believe in dealing with truth head on, and that is unfortunate.

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"I've noticed that people don't want to believe that teenaged kids make evil choice."

Of course they do. Where do you think the "kids are cruel" comes from. The key who stays evil and who doesn't. Then again, it's best not to stick around to find out. Heh.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I too am decidedly uninterested in the etiology of malignant narcissism. Love that sentence. They are because they are. They may not get up and decide to be evil, but they sure as hell do get up and decide to get what they want no matter what it may cost someone else. If that ain't evil, I don't know what is.
Perhaps you are the one, Anna, whose advice I read so profittably some time back: Don't ask yourself why they do what they do, ask yourself how they do it. Figuring THAT out helped me to feint and parry more effectively when forced to be in contact. Thanks for all you do. Jean

Writer in Washington said...

Cruel, yes. But the assumption is that they are going to grow out of that. Evil, no. I certainly don't want to find out if they have changed, which I don't believe is possible. I know they've never made any genuine attempt at repentance. What has always amazed me is that they could so easily shift alliance to their mother, when it was always Dad who primarily cared for them. Also, they don't blame Mom but Dad is at fault. This is the same Dad that took all three of his kids in, without any child support from her, and provided them with a safe home while "Mom" was cavorting with her new live-in boyfriend. Wow, has Dad ever treated them badly! (sarcasm intended).

Anonymous said...

The Bible has many instances of God's righteous anger. We are made in God's image. We have the right, the obligation, to feel anger when faced with evil and to thereby deal with that evil. Don't softshoe around evil, it certainly doesn't softshoe around its victims.

Get thee behind me. From such as these, walk away.

toni said...

There seems such a natural tendency to gang up on the victim when the victim calls the perp on their abuse. It's like even recognizing the behavior for what it is makes you fair game. It really kind of resembles Ns in a way. My N family is generous to people who don't need it. If you fall on hard times, illness or financial problems, they punish you while being extra generous to the people who are doing well.

My older N sister taught me how to play house with dolls. She would torment the older dolls that had scratches and flaws, while praising the new shiny dolls and it made me feel sick in my gut. I thought the old ones must be sad and needed love and attention. I would wait until my sister was not around and secretly tend to the dolls. I just can't help but see her as simply cruel and no excuse that the same behavior continues to this day, no justification. I suppose some shrink would say the doll represented herself and she felt she was ugly and punishing herself, blah, blah. I only saw meanness, and she treated me the same way she treated the old dolls. I don't care if narcissists are the most insecure people on the planet- they have the choice to internalize their bad feelings instead of punishing others.

jacqueline said...

Great comments!! I also experienced "counsel" from various christian friends, a christian counselor and a pastor who basically minimized the situation and told me to pray more, speak in a soft voice, be submissive, that I had an anger problem!!(NO KIDDING!!)etc..Yeah right!! The word evil never was an option- until now. The ability to name it has made a tremendous impact on how I perceve every interaction with the STB-N ex. I constantly re-read the past post, "the narcissist is a cannibal". That post did more for me than thousands of dollars of counseling and a marriage retreat!!

Anonymous said...

Anna wrote,"In my opinion, a person who was abused, who knows what it feels like down to their marrow to be the victim, to turn around and do that to another person themselves...is a special kind of evil all its own."

This is extremely true. There is really nothing more deplorable than someone whose experienced abuse of any sort inflicting it onto another person. I truly do feel that at the end of day, after all the psychological alibis and comforting explanations supposedly accounting for malignant narcissism in an individual have been put forth, you're still left with an empty monster incapable of acting like a human being. The older I get, I tend to be less sympathetic towards the litany of rationalizations narcissists put forth to absolve themselves of their emptiness and emotional absenteeism. I do feel that in certain cases, these emotional parasites can be labeled as evil, period.

I also feel that it's exactly this refusal (I hesistate to call this an inability) to empathize with others, despite having suffered similar abuses, that blurs the lines between narcissist and sociopath. Let the "professionals" distinguish the two disorders; as for those that have suffered at the hands of a narcisisst, I'd wager that the trauma feels the same as if it were done by a sociopath.

LJA said...

Hmm . . . it is interesting to read the comments. In the course of trying to figure out 'what was wrong with me,' I sought advice from leaders in my church. They did not want to here about things that happened 'in the past.' Their advice? 'Be careful. It's best to just let things go.' They were not even interested in finding out what it was they were asking me to 'just let go of.'

So, I will present an example and am open to hearing whether or not this is evil. I am still struggling with whether some of it was really 'evil' or not, myself.

I had an 'interesting' childhood. As part of that, for a 5 year period when I was a child, I was molested by an older cousin. To the best of my knowledge, no one in my family knew about it at the time.

Last fall, after several months in counseling, I typed up everything I could remember about that - just the facts of what happened - 6 pages worth. I asked my mother to read it. While she did, she commented: 'Poor little guy,' among other things. After she had finished, she said, 'I don't see what the point of knowing this is when I can't do anything about it now.' Then she again said, 'Poor little guy,' referring to my cousin. All through this, she had not once expressed any concern for how I felt or how I was affected by this. So I asked her, 'What about this poor little girl?' I was crying by this time. All she did was give me her 'look,' which indicated that I was being a baby . . .

That is all that she has ever said about it. Is this evil?

Anonymous said...

Ija, I'm so sorry that happened to you. Both the abuse by your cousin and the abuse by your mother. If it helps, I think your mother's behavior was evil to the nth degree.

As for seeking counsel and comfort from "Christian" sources, it doesn't seem to matter what your problem may be, they don't want to be asked to confront a problem or grapple with apparent contradictions to doctrine. There's an absence of depth, maturity, commitment throughout the body of Christ. IMHO
Even my oldest and dearest friend persisted for decades in excusing my Nmom --- urging Christian forebearance and forgiveness on me. Finally, last year, I told her to cut it out or we were no longer friends. I told her if she believes I am honest and generous of spirit, she would believe what I say about dealing with my mother -- and not make me feel like a self-pitying liar. She's been making an effort to affirm and hear me out since then. I told her she had set me free by doing that and now she can't get enough of it. :) A lot of credit for my being able to stand up and roar comes from reading at this blog, too!

So, what IS in a heart? said...

Well, you can ask why all you want, but the causes/answers don't stop someone from being evil. It's a belief system that carries MANY reasons for why they do it. You can understand all you want, but that alone doesn't help. Neither does saying, "I was poor, but I made something of myself and didn't steal."

It only helps to satiate curiosity, but evil isn't like a plant, disease, or poverty. It's not enough to find causes and uproot them, you also have to understand HOW they do things, as one of the anons mentioned.

The book, "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft can help a great deal if you're dealing with an abuser. His "why" is that it's nothing more than a belief system, and he explains HOW they do what they do. Reviewers have said that book saved their lives.

Anonymous said...

lja, I too am sorry to hear of the abuse you've suffered. One of my best friends comes from a family where everyone seemed wired, down to their DNA, to act hateful towards her. This is a good person that gives her all to her children and people in general. For years, her parents and siblings have acted acutely deplorable towards here, demonstrating not just a lack of empathy, but abject hatred for her.

When she decided to seek a divorce after putting up with an unfaithful husband that stole money from her, her parents blamed her for not being supportive enough of her ex. She also has two wonderful kids that she has custody of. For quite some time, making ends meet proved beyond difficult, with an ex husband that refused to pay any child support despite quitting several high paying jobs. At one point, with no where to stay, her family told her that she and the kids should stay at a shelter. According to her demonic father, she'd get along there fine since she used to volunteer there in high school and college. My friend has many close friends that have come to be stand-ins for her blood relatives and have taken care of her. She is not a beggar and reciprocates whatever kindness done for her with love and compassion. Oh, and her parents act slighted that she no longer wants her children around them!

I wanted to provide this example to try and show that you are not wrong for feeling the way you do. Your mother's reaction is wretchedly evil. Take care and don't ever allow yourself to feel as though you are wrong on what happened to you.

Anonymous said...

To SWIIAH's comment:

In reality, the bullies go on to be bullies. Most bullied people do not turn into MNs. It is the people who bully others as children that hone their skills into adulthood. They do not start out as victims. They start out as perps, and continue down that road.

Bully equals young offender, equals adult offender. This is why bullies need intervention early in their school years.

Writer in Washington said...

LJA: I had a very similar experience to yours, was molested by a cousin when I was a child. I am so very sorry that you went through that, too.
After I became a single parent, I sought counseling. I have "forgiven" that cousin but it was something I never talked to either of my parents about or anyone in my family for that matter. The reason is quite simple. I knew that somehow the blame would have been placed upon me by my religion addict/narcissist parents. I was told to "forgive" the perp by my counselor who prayed with me about it. However, I have come to realize that such debts are not "forgiven", they are just written off (like one does when balancing a ledger). I chose to not allow it to influence my life. The debt is still there and has gone unpaid by my cousin.
My mother, whenever I confronted her for one or more of her heinous behaviors toward me always made a non-apology for her behavior and said "don't wear your feelings on your shirt sleeve." That is why I never would talk to my parent about what happened. I knew better than to expect any compassion from them.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget:
Those same people who leaned on you so hard to forgive and forget or justify the N's behaviour will -

When they finally acknowledge that the N really is evil will look at you, like you are the biggest idiot and say, "But why did you put up with it for so long?"

Insert smirk here.

"I would never have allowed anyone to treat me that way."

Barbara said...

Anna --

Once again you have written something that resonates VERY strongly with me. (which of course just helps cement my belief that all Ns come from the same planet of dark evil)

They CHOOSE to do evil. They CHOOSE to be evil. And you can never out-think them because they have no pesky emotional investments to get in the way. They infiltrate every section of society and spend their infectious "not my fault" gospel wherever they can. They PREY on the fact that we normals are sympathetic and understanding.

Angry? Hell yes. Even though my N mom has been gone 8 years and I am 51 years old now - I am more p***ed off as time goes on.

LJA said...

Thank you for your comments. They help. It is difficult to see clearly, sometimes, when you are still in the box, so to speak. It has been remarkably difficult to come to the place that I can even consider the possibility that my mom might be evil. I'm sure some of you know what I mean.

As to trying to explain 'why' someone is evil... after reading this, I thought about it and this is what I came to:

I had a pastor who often said, when talking about abuse, that, 'hurting people hurt people.' I know it is not original with him, but I don't know where he got it. Anna, you are right on. This very statement demeans the victims - their fears and pain. It is a rationalization to avoid having to look evil in the face and actually DO something about it. It also demeans every person who, though abused and wounded, never turned to being abusive themselves.

This particular pastor turned out to be an SOB - or a narcissist - himself. He has inflicted (and is still inflicting) a lot of damage. A friend of mine is working to put a stop to that. I am helping her in every way I can. :-) But that is an ENTIRELY other story. It is actually coming to the realization of what he was doing that helped me begin to examine my mom.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 (NKJV)

So, what IS in a heart? said...

"Most bullied people do not turn into MNs."

You don't have to be an MN to choose evil though. Some have BPD(and a lot of these people come from god awful homes), others have APD, but PD or not they have the belief system of evil. I also did mention that many abused/bullied people don't grow up to be evil.

While it's true that a lot of child bullies go on to be adult perps, victims becoming victimizers happens more often than people think. After all, being "nice" got them nowhere, right? Good=Weak, right? Abuser/bully=strong, right? So if you can't beat them, join them. They're the "strong". The victim=weak because they were "too kind" or "cowardly", "trusting" or whatever. Some victims/targets buy into this. They may not use the same methods, but the mentality is the same. In fact, some former/remaining victims are CLOSET/Covert MNs/not so good people in that they actually encourage other people to put up with an abuser's crap, and don't seem to like those who can effectively stand up to a bully or get rid of an abuser. Sort of like people who claim to be pacifists but use verbal/psychological violence.

Honestly, I don't think it's true in many cases. I sure hope not because it takes a special kind of depravity to do it, but some victims really do choose to remain victims by doing the very things they claimed to hate. Or worse, they love the abuser, and figure that it's best to simply be like them.

I figure there's three kinds of targets/victims: Those who choose to remain victims, those who choose to become evil themselves(hey, it "works", right, there's profit and benefits to being evil), and those who choose neither.

The thing is, if someone honestly believes that being compassionate, being moral, having empathy, or altruism, love, trust, etc. was what got them abused/taken advantage or, then it's real easy for them to simply STOP being that way and end up buying into evil/amoral ideology.

Since it's easy to be an N or evil, and evil is generally banal anyway, then it stands to reason that it's not just nasty children who choose to get into the habit of evil.

After all, abusers "win", right? So why not join the "winning" team? Sadly, a lot of the targets really do buy into it. Thankfully, a lot don't, while the same time, making sure that they are never again targets.

Naive No Longer said...

lja,

Your mother's reaction is evil. Make no bones about it, there is something very wrong with a mother who could respond this way to the unspeakable atrocities perpetrated against her precious daughter. You have been violated in a way that is evil to its core, first by your cousin, and then secondly, by your very own mother, who is supposed to love and treasure you. Her lack of outrage and pain on your behalf shows that there is something very wrong with her. Her attempt to minimize or discount the atrocity in any way is evil, evil, evil.

I am so sorry.

jacqueline said...

Hello LGA! You might want to check out this site www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists. The title is "Characteristics of narcissistic Mothers." Keep on pressing in. Thoughts and prayers your way!!

LJA said...

Jacqueline, Thanks - that is actually the article that started me on the road of looking at my mother as possibly being a narcissist. The first time I read it, it was like the author had observed and wrote about my mother.

Everyone, THANK YOU for your comments. I am not used to having what I feel be considered a big deal.

I have something else that my aunt suggested I ask you all about. I never really thought it was that big of a deal, but I am beginning to.

When I was 3, my mother and our pastor worked to bring a movie into the church to show it. It doesn't really matter what the movie was. There was a scene in the movie where a teenage girl attempts to kill herself by slitting her wrists. They don't show her doing it, just her being discovered. As part of bringing the movie in, there was a press kit that came with it which included a bunch of still photos from the film. Among them were a couple shots of this girl lying on the diner bathroom floor bleeding. I asked my mom if I could have the photos (I think, I'm a little fuzzy on whether I asked or they were offered - I was 3). My mom let me have them and I carried them around with me for years - I was especially fascinated with the pics of the attempted suicide. Was this really that big a deal? Thanks...

krl said...

Re: Comment by Jacqueline

I think the curiousity of a child...no matter what it is...is not so much the concern as is the lack of a mother's follow-up on what the fascination or curiousity is about? Did she follow up with you on the movie? On the suicide scene? Did she ask you if it upset you? Did she ask you if you had questions? Did she concern herself AT ALL about what you might be thinking or feeling..EVEN AT THAT AGE (3)....a nurturing mother knows their child thinks and feels...and is possibly concerned about something. Nmothers DON'T.

I don't know the whole situation....I don't know if you 'outgrew' the pictures...I don't know a lot of things....but the fact that you mention it and question it now, means it WAS a 'big deal'.

Hang in there. Read. Read. Read. Pray. Pray. Pray.

krl

Anonymous said...

Thanks again, Anna, for your wonderful blog. I can truely state that your blog has helped me and continues to help me more than any therapist can or ever will. Keep up the great work. It is so needed!

lja said...

RE: krl comment;

Thanks. More of the story is that there was no conversation about it, though she would tell people she thought it was cute how much I liked them.

Today, I was listening to a mix of music and "Ode To Billy Joe" came up. As I listened to it, I remembered how my mom used to play it all the time (literally, on the guitar, singing it herself). As a child, this is a powerful memory and I have always liked the song. As I listened, 'light-bulb.' What is the song about? Someone jumping off a bridge. And - when I hit my mid-twenties, I tried to kill myself - had reached my limit of pain (I thought).

My mom is aware of this and has never expressed any concern about it. The only time she ever even refers to it is to tell me she is feeling suicidal and I am the only one who knows how she feels.

jacqueline said...

Hello krl! Just to set the record straight, I think your recent comment is meant for LGA! Thanks

LJA said...

PS - I am not saying that these pictures and a song are what drove me to suicide. The various abuses and mental torment over the years that did that. But, from an early age, the idea of suicide being an option to escape the pain was there. And my fascination with it is not something I have an explanation for except for the idea of escape... there are many other things, but it would need a book to tell . . .

Anonymous said...

Evil. The best word to describe them. The KNOW what they do is not right. They just don't care, about you! They only care about themselves, their wants, their needs. Only one solution. No contact! I am learning the hard way! They can look you in the eye and say the nicest things (which I never believe anyway!). Turn around and they do the total opposite! Sick! There should be laws to protect the innocent!

Anonymous said...

This post has helped me tremendously, as I have struggled to understand the "why" for the past five years! I keep trying to rationalize my ex-husband's behavior when I should be just seeing it for what it is--pure evil.
He can look me straight in the eye and lie to me over and over. He can watch me cry and tell him I love him and will do whatever it takes...and he will just stare at me with ZERO emotion. He can abuse me, call me the worst things I have ever heard and turn around and tell me that it's my fault--I make him act that way. He has ZERO accountability!

I need to see him for what he is--evil. And I need to remember (like Anna's other post said)--that I am an object, not a person to him. That understanding has really hit home for me.

Anna, if you wouldn't mind I would like to see a post concerning HOW it seems like the Narcissists never seem to lose. They get away with this stuff over and over. HOW? Why are innocent people the ones left paying the price?

Thanks--your blog has literally saved my life. I visit regularly just for a sanity check.

Anonymous said...

Lja that was horrible what your mother did. I do see it as evil. I am sure the devil pities the murderer more than the murdered. I do feel for you. If only I could make it so such things never happened and never will.
Even worse your mother pitied your cousin and not you. He needs no pity. He merits contempt. You were hurt badly. It was gross injustice for your mother to completely ignore your needs and to feel sorry for the wolf.

Your cousin has done something so atrocious he can never make up for it. Your mother has done the same.

Saskaya said...

I used to think that forgiveness was a virtue. I actually thought that if I was kind and gentle and loving to a narcissist, s/he would love me back, somehow.

Then, I turned 30 and had completed my PhD a year before. My mother's reaction was to remind me that I was the "bad thing that came between" her and my father.

I then realised that the only reason she would speak to me since the day I was born was that she thought she would make me her ally in a campaign to get at millions of dollars of my father's money.

I cannot live in my home country. I am forced to live in exile because she has poisoned my romantic relationships and friendships by telling my boyfriends that I'm selfish because I won't beg/sue/blackmail my father for money.

This is how she interprets my choice of getting an education and a career.

When I confronted her about this backstabbing, her reaction was "I'm only trying to motivate you".

Every other human being on the planet believes that my mother is the sweetest person alive. Even I used to believe it; that was, until I realised that I was being used.

Donna said...

Your blog was discovered today while using Google to search for "narcissists and emotional rape". In only a little over two hours, I have seen in words what I have felt in my heart for 5 1/2 years, which is how long I have been married to a passive aggressive evil narcissist. This is my second marriage and isn't a marriage at all, but has been a feeding ground for him to continue his exploitation of me and anyone else he has come in contact with. Just by reading two of your blogs today, much truth and realization has come to my heart and mind. Especially helpful is your blog on "Angry with a Narcissist". Thank you for your God-given insight and for your sharing so that others can be enlightened and empowered with sources and resources to find and apply real truth in reality.

Ganesha said...

I am just starting to read on this post and I am writing to thank you for its existance. Maybe I will start to feel sane again. I have been in so much pain from a narcissist. I have developed a mild (not very rashy) form of shingles from the stress and I actually, literally, feel like I am burning up, havn't slept for 6 nights, ugh.

Anna Valerious said...

Ganesha,

Thanks for taking the time to comment. My heart goes out to you. Physical reactions to the predation of narcissists are very common. Their malignity leaves a mark on our bodies as well as our minds. You are definitely not crazy. Keep reading to find much reassurance that you are quite sane...you've just be abused into thinking you're not.

Anonymous said...

I found this thread while looking for info on narcissism. The comments were really helpful. There is no reasoning with a narcissist. Accept the narcissist for who he or she is and protect yourself.

evenkeel40 said...

"To explain why evil is is to justify it." Excellent comment. Excellent post as usual. Only thing I'd like to add, and if it has already been said, I apologize (I did not read through all 45 comments) but, not only is explaining evil justifying it - acting like it doesn't exist is the epitome of ignorance. Furthermore, what I find really interesting about all this ignorance of evil (and the lack admittance thereof - on society's part) is exactly how the Master of Evil has gotten away with this caper thus far.

FYI--Up until about the 1500s I think it was - "clergy" use to handle "diseases" such as personality disorders because they knew these "disorders" were actually spirits that had attached themselves to a person's "PSYCHE." And by the way - guess what the word psyche means/is? The root word for pshyce(hiatry) and it means the "spirit." About 500 yrs ago - science decided it had a better way to handle things of this nature. Which was to separate the pshyche from the person and that's why we see what we see now. Not only do they deny evil exists, they (the idiotic psychiatric field in gneral); they deny the relationship between a person's mind and their psyche. Do we really need to wonder what the problem is over 200 years later???

Anonymous said...

I have been feeling so completely lost, manipulated, confused, angry, guilty etc., both on my own behalf and that of my siblings as we all come from our interactions with our father feeling sick, upset, baffled and exhausted.

I have been searching for years for an answer and a way of dealing with this person. I have been careful about labelling his behaviour as sick (even though I have known for a while in my deepest heart that it is) as he is so adept at presenting an 'admirable' image to the world and at completely misrepresenting us and our actions taken ON HIS BEHALF to those he associates with. When I go back to Ireland to visit people tell me what a good, brave, likeable person he is. Hence I have just felt inadequate and guilty.

Basically, recently all his surviving adult children have spent copious amounts of time, energy, brainpower and money in attempting to make his old age as comfortable as possible and to visit him from all over the world. NONE of these actions were taken without lengthy discussion with him about what his needs were. I have found out accidently that he is now giving other people the impression that we have plotted and then acted behind his back, witheld information from him and he has even gone so far as to accuse his oldest son, my wonderful brother who knocks himself out to help his dad, of skimming money from accounts he is helping with as my father is old and no longer really competent to handle his financial affairs. He has also managed to convince people that his chidren hardly ever visit and he must manage alone (one of my sisters LEAVES HER OWN FAMILY to visit him every weekend AND IS IN DANGER OF LOSING HER JOB through time taken out to help with medical visits etc.).

This is only a tiny part of the whole long, sad and sick story.

Only this morning I have gone through another emotional storm because of his behaviour (and I could write reams about that) and have realised that every time I find a compassionate approach to his behaviour or a way of explaining it away he does something so breathtakingly cruel and selfish and dishonest that I am enraged again.

So thank you thank you thank you for expressing the idea of 'what' rather than 'why'. I think it is the only way forward for me . For 41 years I have tried to escape from his malignancy and just continued to be this man's puppet. He has had plenty of opportunity to change. Enough. As someone said on one of these blogs - accept that he is what he is. This is the first time that it has felt ok for me to tell the truth about this subject.

Anonymous said...

I have been reading these post for awhile trying to sort out my own thoughts and feelings. I feel so sad and hurt. But mostly, I'm just very very angry. Trying very hard to not let my anger affect anyone else. It is very difficult to accept at 43 that my mother has never wished me well, actually wants me to be unhappy, even to the point of actually saying she wants something "bad" to happen to my children- HER GRANDCHILDREN. Yes, she said it to my husband. Because, I think, I'm so "high and mighty" and "better" than everyone else. I have felt all of my life that I must ALWAYS choose between my mother and everyone else. Mom over dad, mom over grandmother, mom over brother, mom over husband. My mother is in a never ending competition with everyone on the planet, but mostly me. I'm her only daughter and her biggest competitor. It's sick! I have lived desperately trying to deny the truth of this all of my life. I think I'm more angry with myself for making excuses for her behavior, than I am about anything. I just can't believe, the power of denial. I really allowed her to use me, my husband, and my children over along period of time. I am grateful though, even if subconsious, I made the decision when I had children that they would never ever have to make choices about whom to love. They could love everyone, without guilt.I stuck to it too. I did have that strength, I believe God helped me there to give them that freedom. I never allowed my mother the opportunity to be in control of them. Although, I have a nephew who wasn't protected and I watched that horrible situation unfold for years. Stealing hearts, yes, all the love must go to my mother first. The sad part is she really doesn't want the love. She actually makes it seem like a burden to be endured, after manipulating so long and hard to get it ALL. She actually said that love was nothing more that a four letter word. I don't think I'll ever really understand. I faced the reality of my situation over the last few years, but just recently found this site and a name for my mothers strange behavior. I did go to therapy a few months ago and after reading some posts feel extremely thankful. My therapist, is the one who first used the words narcissit, spiteful, and self centered. She also told me to stop trying to figure out why, that doing that was me trying once again to justify and excuse her and her choices. She has been very helpful to me, but I think coping with my anger is going to take along time. I find I'm drawn to your site. I feel sort of like it explains in a very helpful way this terrible, screwy situation. I am sick of being so angry though, does it ever end? I'm afraid I may think about it too much. And, Anna- no contact. Actually, she did it. I guess my not seeing the world and her reality as real, was more than she could take. My not having feelings approved of by her, unacceptable. Me actually displayng a picture of my father in my house,a slap in her face. My entire life has somehow been a trampling of her. For me to sit in a corner and just take in air, is to somehow think myself better. No win situations, I could write a book. Sorry to go on..and I could. Thank you for the site.

Anonymous said...

After reading countless commentaries here, I am so thankful that the damage i have encountered was that from a malignant narcissistic man rather than my beloved mother. As horrible and unimaginable as the damage I have experienced I cannot imagine the despair when coming from someone who as crucial as one's mother. I can't even imagine. As devastated as I am, it pales in comparison to being victimized by ones own mother. As a mother of two, I can at least be thankful for that.

Anonymous said...

Anna, I found this line courious comming from a Christian perspective.

"They are signals sent from primitive places in our brains."

"Primative" gives the idea that we have become more esentialy then we have been. While the Bible says the earliest man acted with discernment and knowledge and in Gods image. Your thoughts?

Anna Valerious said...

God gave us large frontal lobes. This part of our brain is what greatly differentiates our brains from that of animals. It has been well proven scientifically for well over a century (and believed for millennia before that) that our frontal lobes are the center of our reasoning and judgment. Suppress the frontal lobes with alcohol, drugs or by head injury and you get to see a person who is ruled by their basic urges, their fears and their emotions. For instance, there is a part of the brain called the amygdala. It is now known that this little area of the brain is the center for fear. When I talk about more primitive places of the brain I am talking about those areas that if not over-ridden by our reasoning frontal lobes will lead us to behave like animals. This is entirely consistent with a biblical view of fallen humanity. As we are now cannot be fairly compared to what Adam and Eve from the hand of the Creator before the fall. It would be impossible to credibly deny that there are base urges, emotions and lusts which do not originate from reason. If we mitigate our reasoning powers by chemicals or simply by refusing to develop them or use them we will end up following these baser urges to our damnation and destruction here and in the world to come. The narcissist prostitutes their reasoning powers every day of their lives which tends to show its destructive effect in old age as they are often show signs of dementia. I believe it is because they've perverted their thinking ability for decades. This cannot be done without consequence. Laws of nature will punish those who disregard them.

Kathleen said...

I have been searching for weeks looking for support and answers to my questions on N. It has been 5 years with trying to explain to my partner about his DIL and how she has made it difficult to have around. Now, my partners’ son is a wonderful man and is so like his father that it is sad that he lives so controlled by his wife. So much written in all these comments describe how I have faced living with a N-DIL. Thank you Anna, I would like to tell my story and ask for some advise in a later posting.

Anonymous said...

You obviously have EXTENSIVE and DETAILED knowlege of this character disorder. I need to know how they got that way. Please help me. I just put my 20 year old daughter out of the house. She fits her description of a predatory narcissist to a "t."
I never abused my daughter but she has had problems from the time that she was a baby. All the social psychologists and therapists poo-poohed my efforts and marginalized my concerns about her. My ex-husband who was a narcissist and a drug addict was around until she was 7 years old. He never abused her (nor did I)but he left all the wrong sort of example for her. Tell me, was she born evil and he just honed her skills?

Anna Valerious said...

Nobody can definitively state the "how" or "why" some people end up malignant narcissists. I'm very sorry no one believed you when you noticed problems when she was very young. There is no doubt that some people are born with a very strong bent toward this personality disorder with signs manifesting before or by the age of three. I have observed that habitual drug use in a parent prior to conception seems to greatly increase the possibility of a child born with this personality disorder. I would venture to guess that you daughter was set up for this by both genetic and environmental factors.

I have emphasized on this blog that it is impossible to know for a fact the reasons why a person is a malignant narcissist. Because of this reality I focused this blog on the "what" instead of the "why". The why can't help us now. We have to deal with them as they are now. The WHAT of their pathological characters is what affects our lives in the here and now. We have to take them as they are and deal with them on that level. To try and nail down the why's of how they got to be what they are is like trying to nail jello to a tree. Futile. Impossible. Fruitless. Deal with the reality of who she is today if you want to protect yourself and others from her predations. Even if you figured out how she became what she is that knowledge wouldn't help you in dealing with her today.

Arwiphawee said...

Good people will solve problems using good means. Sorry, abuses, bad experinces, and mishaps are not a valid excuse for bastard narcissists.

Huddy's Journal of Life said...

I am angry that I grew up with a hideously cruel n brother. I am 39 years old and I have just recently figured out how deeply sick he is. I am so angry and hurt that he never once genuinely cared for me. I have always discounted my feelings, and I just dont want to any more. Im so fucking pissed off that I was the scape goat and he was the one who could do no wrong . He has hurt me so much. He continues to torture me with evil selfish misery. Im angry and sad and ok with it. I can now move on without him. Thank you.

unsinkable said...

My husband actually said, "I am very evil, and I enjoy making people suffer." I think less candid narcissists feel this way but don't say so. Evil is empowering, and narcissists are drunk with power.

Skylar said...

Yep, my ex-spath also made it his life mission to be evil, do evil, and con others into doing evil. Everything else he might do or gain was just a by-product of that mission. In a moment of projection, he said to me, "It isn't good for you to enjoy other people's pain so much." It was, of course, a psychopathic tell.

My little psychopath sister said, "Skylar, everyone is evil. I'm evil, you're evil, my husband is evil, and your husband is evil. It's okay to be evil."

That was a WTF? moment. I didn't know about psychopaths back then.

Tundra Woman said...

FWIW: People stumble upon/somehow come across info on MNs/Sociopaths. "Ahhh! Yes! This is EXACTLY what I've experienced-I'm NOT nuts!" and research all they can dig up about the "Why's."
I get that. But there comes a point where "Reading and Research" has now provided you a framework in which to think....So you can get stuck right there. Not for "awhile" but falling into the same pattern of understanding "Why?" into the indefinite future.
No "Higher Power" is gonna fall out of the sky and validate you and your new-found knowledge re: WHY her/she/it is "like this." That's where YOU have choices. Satisfying the intellect is no where near as life transforming as acting on what YOU know to be TRUE, just, right. You wouldn't be at such a Blog unless you were in one of these messes with an MN, right?
Until you find the what ever to believe in yourself, you'll stay "there" forever, even knowing what you know. Confidence in oneself and choices is not gong to sprout wings (or leaves) and grow until you do and get yourself OUT.
Take your time informing your intellect. In the mean time, life was NOT meant to be a "Life Sentence" with no hope for Parole. Your "Parole Officer(s)" is never gonna give you the terms, conditions or length of "Term."
YOU decide and that IS within your "control." And Personal Responsibility.
TW

Carolyn Davis said...

I have just recently found this site and I truly believe that God sent me here. I have been reading about narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths for a few years now. Reading, reading, reading. Reading has led to understanding and growth. But now I want to heal. More than anything, I want to heal my heart. I have tried talking to a few close friends, but had my feelings invalidated. I don't believe my friends would intentionally hurt me; they just don't understand or cannot accept the evil that exists. I have never posted on a site before. Perhaps posting will help me on my path to healing??? I do thank you for this site and all the time and energy you put into it. And I thank God for directing me here.

Virtualblonde363 said...

Okay so I see this blog post is old and I am not sure if you are still listening anna but this blog should be everywhere!!! I true have tried to understand and downplay my own emotions when dealing with my NPD sister in law. My husband and I were kicked out of our church because I refused to forgive her after her last narcisstic rage. Shes convinced I stole her brother from her, am trying to steal her son, and now her entire family. I have suffered endless abuse at her hand...My husband cut her off and I became the evil wife who is keeping him from his sister. This is also what my church believed, I watched as she manipulated them all with her sob story after texting me the night before saying she hoped I was crying in a corner and wrote hahahahahaha a million times like a psycho. He even thought I was crazy at first , like I did something to provoke her....which I didn't....until he defended me and she raged on him. I can't even go to my husbands holidays with the family because she takes as an opportunity to abuse me....last holiday she told me that she would make me pay and screamed at me in front of the family. No one did anything to defend me. Her family continues to ignore her increasingly irate behavior to the point where I don't even feel safe going to his holidays anymore...I used to stuff down my feelings but not anymore!!! This blog has inspired me greatly!! Thank you!!!

Wendy said...

Your blog has been very helpful and validating. My family has a history of Narcissism...I believe I may be a recovering narcissist and would attribute my recovery to long and sustained spiritual effort combined with a couple of years of counseling when I was a young adult. These two tools helped me discern good from evil, and I saw my family system more clearly for the effect it was having, and I also saw that I had been making evil choices believing they were right. I believe that if I had not made certain choices at a young age, I could easily be a malignant narcissist today, perhaps beyond reform. So, my question is this. If becoming a narcissist is a choice (and I agree that it must be), then isn't the salvation of a narcissist also a choice? It is this idea of being beyond reform that is so difficult for me. I have extremely sparse, limited contact with my parents. I do this to protect myself from backsliding and also to protect my children from being used as pawns. When I was in regular contact with my parents, I began to be verbally abusive to my husband, channeling the unspoken but still very real and narcissistic expectations of my family. When I got away from them, I completely changed. Their influence is powerful, or perhaps I am weak. In any case, my question is, if I can catch it and change, why couldn't anyone? Or was it getting help at a young age that made the difference? I do think my own recovery is impossible without divine intervention.

Anna Valerious said...

Hi Wendy,

I have tried to convey on this blog that I believe malignant narcissism is a spiritual issue. I do believe you are right that your changes have only been possible because of divine intervention. I obviously believe that we can "catch" evil from others which is one of my central arguments for going no contact with unrepentant narcissists. Their spiritual malady is contagious. We are all susceptible to becoming like them if we remain in close and willing contact. I do believe anyone can change, but it requires 1) a deep and committed desire to change. 2) a dependence on God to do it. I think there is sufficient Biblical evidence that God is willing to intervene in our lives to change us at any point, but it is also clear that the longer we pursue an evil course the harder it is to turn from it. So while I never rule out change as a possibility even for a committed narcissist, I don't recommend people hang around hoping for that change. You're obviously a testament to the power of God to change a life. Thank you for sharing that hopeful message. It is apparent that you are unlike your family of origin in that you don't want to remain stuck in patterns of selfish and cruel behavior. You wisely remove yourself from their baleful influence in order to remain on a positive course. This isn't a testament to your being weak, it is a sign of wisdom. To recognize your susceptibility to their bad influence and being willing to stay away from them is strength of will and character. Be grateful for God's power to live a different kind of life than what was modeled for you and carry on.

Joan S said...

But aren't we supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin? As far as I know people do wrong is that they are not choosing to do wrong for the sake of wrong, they are trying to make themselves feel better. A MN is trying to recover a feeling. That is all it is a feeling.

For instance, she is trying to feel better by hurting her children. Ok, lol, I just turned that around on myself. Sorry, a confusing time for me. One more piece of the puzzle solved. Never mind.

I'll think I'll post this one anyway.

reg said...

A victim should not be ashamed of getting angry at injustice and cruelty of the narc / psychopath /sociopath. That is the first step towards realization, retalitaion and survival. Once (s)he understood the narc is never going to change.
But once we understood how the narc incite our feelings, we should stop getting emotional to his gimmiks (all hio emotions and expressions are fake). Especially in court of law and in social situations. We should react with fake emotions and fake expressions to his emotional outbursts and logical suggestions. Now you are defeating the narc. We should be indignant to his crimes. But we should stop emotional to reduce his effects and the damage he causes.