Tuesday, September 16, 2008

An Important Distinction: Self-love vs. Self-respect

While I was several weeks into my hiatus this summer a new reader of this blog posed a great question I couldn't resist making an effort at answering despite my being on vacation. Because the question was in the comment section of an old post I thought I would re-post it...and my response...here on the front page. I think it was substantive enough of an answer that it deserves front and center placement.

Perhaps you could write about how it is that Ns can simultaneously "love" themselves and have low self-esteem.

Self-love which is not based on self-respect is the conundrum of the malignant narcissist. This conundrum explains why they can have "low self-esteem" and yet love themselves supremely. They are breathing examples of the consequences of always putting themselves first (which is the Biblical definition of self-love i.e. the one I use.) They are the living proof that self-love doesn't translate into true self-respect and reality-based feelings of liking oneself or at least being able to live with looking at yourself in the mirror.

Some people confuse self-love as feelings of affection for oneself. That is not correct. Self-love is defined by behavior. It is comprised of the behaviors of always thinking of and acting for oneself as if you are everyone's primary concern as well as your own primary concern. As if your wants and needs should supersede anyone else's wants or needs. This is intimately linked with a huge sense of entitlement. This is a self-love which is bereft of self-respect and honest good feelings about the self because it must trample on everyone else in order to exist.

How is self-respect gained? Self-respect is the result of self-discipline (which includes self-denial and putting off gratification) with the eye to future benefit (not only for the self, but also for others) resulting from these things. Self-respect has to be earned. We have to prove to ourselves that we deserve to respect ourselves. Constructive self-discipline is anathema to the malignant narcissist. If they were self-disciplined they would likely not be malignant narcissists.

Another way we could say it is "self-control". Self-discipline is self-control. MNs only use enough self-control to keep themselves from being caught in their crimes. They use just enough self-control to make sure only their victims see Mr. Hyde come out. That is not a constructive use of self-control; neither is it a self-control with any endurance. It is short term self-control used for selfish ends. I give them no credit for their occasional use of self-control. Any use of self-control by the narcissist is, once again, all about getting them what they want. Not about doing the right thing. Their limited use of self-control for their selfish ends only further corrupts them and their environment.

The narcissist doesn't do anything in the moral realm to earn self-respect therefore they tend to loathe themselves when they are forced to moments of introspection. If you've been in a long-term relationship with a narcissist be they parent or lover you've likely witnessed at least one of these moments when they seem black with the despair of their self-loathing. You've also likely been frightened to see the depth of their spiral into the blackness of their own souls. It can evoke great pity from the decent, but the reality is those moments are the dues they are paying to their demons. Every ounce of their self-loathing is earned. They deserve to feel like the pieces of crap they are. Yet it is likely someone will intervene with the necessary praise and comfort to lift these pieces of human debris from the hell of their own making without the narcissist truly having to grapple who they are and making a determined effort to come clean.

The narcissist's dependence on the praise of others is how they try to compensate for their lack of self-respect. The unmerited praise of others never has the ring of truth to it to the ear of the despicable one. Some part of their mind tells them these people are either lacking in full information and therefore are deceived, or they want something from the narcissist. But the more forceful part of their mind overrules these concerns and laps up the unmerited praise as their due. The narcissist is constantly forced to pursue more of the cheap imitation (self-love) to overcome the lack of the genuine article (self-respect). Their bad feelings about themselves may start to surface causing them to demand that their sources of supply release some of the sweet nectar of adulation to overcome the threat of self-knowledge.

Narcissists are living proof that self-love is not something to be desired or pursued. Self-love doesn't make us happy or make us better people. SELF-RESPECT should be the goal and aim for lasting happiness, contentment and true accomplishment in the life. Self-respect means you think well enough of yourself not to mistreat yourself. It doesn't mean you think you are better than others.

The narcissist's life proves you can't possibly 'love yourself' enough to overcome or compensate for the need for self-respect.

Self-love requires no moral accomplishment. Self-respect does require moral accomplishment. Anything worth having has to be worked for. The narcissist is not willing to put forth honest and good labor to make themselves into decent people. So they settle for loving themselves above all others...you can see where that takes them. Down the path of evil...

Self-love is as over-rated in our society as self-respect is under-rated. Time to get things into their proper order.

In the movie "An American Psychopath" starring Christian Bale the psychopath's anthem was "The Greatest Love of All" by Whitney Houston. It was the song the psychopath said summed up all of the truth of life itself. "Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all". This was one of many truths of the narcissistically psychopathic mind portrayed well in this very disturbing movie. Where did self-love take the psychopath? On the path of ultimate entitlement. An entitlement which meant that depriving others of their lives was a worthy sacrifice to his self-love.

Self-love is not a virtue. Pursuing feelings of loving yourself will make a shipwreck of your soul. The narcissist is living proof of this reality.


Anonymous said...

I've been very impressed with all your posts. My father is an MN, and reading your work has really helped me understand him. What's most fascinating is that his wife, like your own father, consistently makes excuses for him and doesn't understand why I avoid contact with him.

Anonymous said...

Love you girl Spot on!! You're posts are keeping me going! Funny, just tonite at my sons open house, (7th grade), his health teacher spoke about teaching the students to love themselves. Maybe I'll send her this post and set her straight!!
p.s. the STBN-ex is now and finally the N-ex!! Three cheers for me!!! However,the law favors the N!!!!!
I walked away owing him half of my retirement, half the proceeds of the sale of the house, which I made payments on for 18 months at $1,500/month, not to mention all the incidental costs of ownership, and a whopping $23 a week in child support!! What a frikkin joke!! This was the person I had first believed was an upright christian man!!! he even had a "Mason" as an attorney!! Something he spoke vehemently against in small christian group settings!!I could go on and on and on. I could just puke!! Is that too vulgar?? It's the truth, though!! On the bright side, however, I feel as though in some invisible, spiritual way, a yoke of bondage has been broken. After leaving the courthouse yesterday, a beautiful song was playing on the christian station with the lyrics exclaiming, "it's a new day"!!I believe God sent that just for me!! A much needed fresh rain!! Anyways, the N-ex antics continue with no relief in site because we share a 5 yr old.
Please y'all... if you could keep me and my children in your prayers, I'd appreciate it lots!! There's still a rocky road ahead of me, as you all can atest to. So thanks everybody and thanks Anna for letting me get this off my chest!! Love you jac

toni said...

I have never witnessed my Ns exhibit any traces of self-loathing. That would be something to behold. The closest I've seen was confusion when they didn't get their way. One N sought therapy, of course evoking pity from the therapist. She then felt validated in her narcissism and never looked back.

Anna Valerious said...

I have never witnessed my Ns exhibit any traces of self-loathing.

I am sure the incidences of self-loathing are correlated to how much of a vestigial remnant of conscience the narcissist still possesses. I have no problem believing that many narcissists have managed to allow their consciences to completely atrophy and therefore are not subject to these events.

I am also sure that there are not a few times when the acts of self-loathing are just that...acts. I know Ns are capable of great theatrics and sometimes pretending to have a conscience is an effective tactic to convince people they are not truly evil in their intent and action.

I have been witness to both. I have seen what were obviously real periods of self-loathing by Ns. I have also seen the theatrical versions. The "feel" of the fake version is quite different to the observant witness.

Therapy makes Ns worse. Period. That would include any and all 12-step programs.

Angela said...

I came here to your site, "Anna" to see what you had to say on the subject of Narcissism and Mental Illness. All I can say is that I have been left shocked, saddened and appalled. I think you have forgotten a couple of extremely important key words. "Mental Illness". I don't care how many Narcissistic Mothers you had! That doesn't entitle you to run around spewing hate on anyone else who is unfortunate enough to be struck down by a Mental Illness, including NPD.
I take it you know very well what the Disabilities Act is? I would like to see you spout off the Same stuff in the workplace or public or in your church that you do here. No instead you cringe behind your computer, spreading your ignorant, uneducated, hateful prejudice.
And you call yourself a christian? What true christian encourages HATE? what true christian encourages hatred and prejudice against people who are mentally ill with Personality Disorders like NPD? And it doesn't stop there! Its nasty small-minded people like you with your bands of devoted little whacko's that spread ignorant attitudes about mental illness and make living with one so difficult.
Angela Romano

Anna Valerious said...

Your shrill diatribe reveals where the real ignorance and hatred reside.

Anna Valerious said...

By the way, Angela, NPD is not classified as a mental illness. Get your facts straight. It is a Axis II personality disorder and considered to be a permanent and fixed personality. You do not cure personalities. It does not fall under the "Disabilities Act". You can't get out of a crime because of NPD...it is not considered "insanity". Etc. Save your lectures.

Anonymous said...

Angela, Angela, Angela, perhaps you should start a blog for Narcissists. I can tell you are quite the expert on the subject. Have a couple over for dinner, keep a few in your basement, sponser one through College. God wants you to Angela.

I wouldn't call us Whackos, I think we are a bunch of people who have tried and tried and tried. You can only try so much.

Anonymous said...

Too true! Legally, NPD is NOT a defense for a crime, unlike true mental illness. No one gets "struck down" with it, it is not like the measles. They end up behind bars for their crimes because they are deemed to be making an informed choice amidst known options.

Anyway - back to the real discussion: good point about self-love and what that really means. I have seen glimpes of self-loathing in N's on occassion, but the one thing I have never seen is any cease in entitlement. Not for a moment. No matter how down they may be at any given moment, they seem sure in their assessment of themselves as being the rightful focus of others undivided attention, energies and lives.

Anonymous said...

I never thought of my fellow posters as a "band of devoted little whackos". I tend to think of them as people who experienced the horrors of a parent/spouse/friend with NPD. And thanks to people like you and Kathy Krajco, we see that we're not alone. Also interesting to get other reader's points of view and experiences, many times very similar to mine.

In regards to your post, my N wore expensive clothes, worked out at the gym religiously, and his house was decorated just so. On the outside everything looked great. The only way he could genuinely feel good about himself was by putting others down, or gossiping about someone to tarnish their reputation. He constantly compared himself to others, i.e.-"I may only be making $45,000 a year, but at least I'm doing better than Brian" (an acquaintance who was laid off when his company downsized). And he always came out on top.

Anonymous said...


Anna would you elaborate on how you have been able to discern between a MN's real display of self-loathing and an act?

In an extremely rare moment, my mother once asked if she "was the worst mother in the world." I think she was just looking for pity, but part of me hoped that she was actually getting a true picture of her nasty self. I guess I'll never know for sure.

Poor Angela seems to be quite deluded.


Anonymous said...

A devoted defender of narcissists is the very definition of whacko.

Good luck with that Angela.

Anonymous said...

It's mindsets like Angela Romano who keep victims of narcissism in the bondage of evil with THE EVIL INDIVIDUAL (aka the narcissist). Also known as Satans followers. Yeah, I just said that!! And yes, I am proud to call my self a Jesus follower and 100% agree with the "Narcissists Suck" blog in it's entirety. Jac

Naive No Longer said...

Either Angela's a narcissist herself or she doesn't understand narcissism in the least.

If it is the latter and not the former and she is somehow newly involved with a narcissist, I bet it is only a matter of time of beating her head against the wall before she starts singing your praises with the rest of us whackos.

Or perhaps she is too ignorant to see beyond her own small-mindedness. The venom and hatred that spewed forth from her is telling . . . it had a much different flavor than the "hatred" she accuses you of. Contrast her hysterical ranting vs your even-handed, level-headed purporting of tough truths. Who's the whacko?

Anonymous said...

Googled "narcissistic mother" and found your blog. I wish I had learned of my mother's pathology long ago. It might have made all the difference. I hope it isn't too late for me. This Angela person has no clue what she's talking about. Since when are we supposed to have compassion for evil?

krl said...

To Angela:

Please do the following for at least one year....maybe a decade or more...and THEN let me see if you have the same thing to say. I really think this blog will be clear then....because, I personally do not think you have been around any or you are one or you've never invested yourself in one. You have to INVEST first....then, let's have that chat.

Ya gotta have these ingredients to test it: They either have their hand in your pocket...(money)...a hand in your pants (sex)...or a hand over your mouth (Silence). See what is left of you after a few years. I don't mean give them a LITTLE control....I mean, full bore 'license' to prove to you what they are. Oh, yeah....and just Lovelovelove them....dutifully, sacrificially, tenaciously until they 'turn that corner' and can see how Christian and special you are! And every time they 'dip' into your resources and recesses, look at them with those BigLovingEyesOfJesus. Wouldja?

nocaster said...

Angela, please read some of Sam Vaknin's writings and get back to us.

yes, i'm angry.. said...

angela sounds just like my monster-in-law..

and the "shame on you!" was the icing on the cupcake.

hope you keep your "shocked, saddened and appalled" little self away from here. we've all got atleast one narcissist in our life. we don't need another one or one of their mindless enabling goons to deal with.


Dee said...


"What true Christian encourages HATE?"

What true Christian encourages the predatory abuse of others? Apparently you do, Angela. No one here encourages hate, only self preservation in the face of evil. If you actually read this blog completely, you might have gotten this. If you are a so called Christian, then you would agree that there is the concept of good as well as the concept of evil. If "good" people exist, then it stands to reason that "evil" people also exist. That of course, is for God to judge in the end. All we can do is rely on our own instincts about what is good and what is evil in order to make decisions for ourselves about the kind of people that we align ourselves with. Those decisions are based on what we hear and see out of others. If someone says good things but acts in an evil manner, or vice versa, that is a warning sign about that person's character. Character is what determines our humanity. Empathy is the very root of humanity. If someone lacks empathy, they are lacking in humanity. You either feel for others or you don't. If you don't, you are wide open to doing evil acts without remorse or guilt. Perpetrating evil acts upon others without guilt or remorse is evil. Without guilt or remorse, how can there be any hope for redemption? Please answer this, if you think you can.
You accuse everyone here of small mindedness when that is precisely what you exhibit. You speak as though you know better than anyone else here, although your post is all accusation and absolutely no substance.
You don't even know the difference between a personality disorder and mental illness! Insane people do not know right from wrong, the personality disordered do, and this doesn't stop them.
You go ahead and embrace evil, my dear, us wackos are going to stick to our insticts that God gave us and do the right thing and not allow it to flourish in our presence. Only someone with a God complex would think that they have the power to save a narcissist's soul. The narcissist gave up his/her soul long ago for the path of least resistance. It takes a lot of work to be decent, but hardly any to be the opposite. Either you are too small minded to see the truth in this, or you yourself are a narcissist, in which case communicating with you is entirely pointless, or you are far more ignorant than you accuse us of being. If the last one is the case, than I suggest you do some serious research on the subject (so that your posts can be taken seriously), spend some time taking abuse from narcissists, and then come back and tell us how wrong we are in following God's advice to stay away from evil. I guess your motto is, "Have you hugged your psychopath today?"

toni said...

Perhaps just the need for constant attention - the fear of ever being alone is a show of self loathing. That is something I have seen demonstrated on a constant basis by my Ns. Also they always must come out on top even if it is over something trivial, such as finding bargains. Mine love to brag about saving a dime and think the sun shines on them alone to find such deals. They point out that they always find the best savings and are so lucky. Then they have to throw in that I'm not lucky. If I do find bargains I'm glad but don't have to shout it to the world, much less use it to prop myself up. They can't fathom this and make a big production out of the most trivial, mundane things in life as long as it involves them. If someone does something giving and unselfish, like volunteer work, they don't get it.

These people, Ns, certainly seem nutty - they're not mentally ill, ANGELA, but mean, selfish and toxic. They deserve sites like this to empower victims to make informed choices in dealing with them.

Anonymous said...

"Therapy makes Ns worse. Period. That would include any and all 12-step programs."

Hi Anna, could you elaborate on this? The reason I ask is that many of us have encountered an N who believes we're supposed to excuse her toxicity because she's "in counseling" or "attending AA meetings", the implication apparently being that she's making efforts to improve. How ironic that counseling or support groups might make things worse.

Along those lines, have you seen the A&E reality show about addicts, Intervention? As much as the viewer is told that the addiction is what's driving the addicts' terrible behavior toward their families, I've noticed that some of them continue to be self-absorbed months into their recoveries. Is there data on the likelihood of addicts being Ns, and/or how many recovering addicts continue to be self-absorbed?

Anna Valerious said...

I base my comment on the work of the renowned doctor and researcher Robert B. Hare. Also that of Stanton E. Samenow. I'm sure there are others but those two have done extensive research that prove the point. Hare has worked with and researched primarily psychopaths. Samenow has worked with criminals in the prison system. I argue that their research applies to malignant narcissism and I do so in these two posts:

Narcissists Can't Be Rehabilitated

Narcissist or Psychopath...Both are Human Predators

In the book by George K Simon, Ph.D. "In Sheep's Clothing" he also asserts that "character disordered personalities" are worsened by therapy and 12-step programs.

The fact is: therapy and 12-step programs only turn out better manipulators. The character disordered of all stripes learn the words to mouth and the ways to convince the decent that they are reforming their lives and/or that they are reformed. Beware.

No, I've never watched "Intervention". I've seen previews of the show and was not ever feeling up to the drama. As for the data that may show that addicts are Ns or that they are self-absorbed after they have kicked their habits...I wouldn't know since that hasn't been a line of inquiry that I've followed. Maybe a reader here is aware of such data and can point you in the right direction. I do know that often narcissists do become addicts. Curing them of their addiction will not cure them of their narcissism.

I hope after reading the two posts above and perusing the links you'll feel more equipped to battle the "I'm in therapy" line you're getting. You don't need to cut more slack to someone just because they wave the therapy flag. It is a diversion, it is a manipulation. A person who is actually learning things in therapy will realize that no such excuse will suffice to excuse their bad behaviors.

Anna Valerious said...

Anna would you elaborate on how you have been able to discern between a MN's real display of self-loathing and an act?

I've been mulling this over since you posed your question. I thought I knew difference and now I'm not so sure of it. I'm going to ponder this a bit more and perhaps dedicate a blog post to what I come up with.

Anonymous said...

Angela, It`s not a mental illness. Being that Iam a Christian, I call it sin and scripture backs up what I`m saying.

Anonymous said...

In my own experience with N's, I've observed that they will go to therapy only under extreme personal duress or threat [ie - loss of NS], or in an attempt to prove others wrong and themselves right. In most cases, they stay long enough for the crisis to blow over and the moment the therapist starts to call them on their own N traits or inconsistencies they quickly find an excuse to drop out. Usually this excuse is blaming the therapist. The ones I've known may shop around for years repeating the same pattern, but at some point settled into the idea that therapy is useless.

The other pattern I've observed is someone ending up in long term therapy but totally staying an N. Whether this person had successfully duped the therapist or if the therapist themselves has given up trying to change her, I don't know. [As for 12-step programs, for a completely crazy switch I knew an alcoholic N who went to....get this: Al Anon!!! That is the one for the FAMILIES and PARTNERS of alcoholics! She went for YEARS! Boy, if N's weren't so evil they'd actually be hilariously funny]

People with Munchhausens successfully dupe doctors, it is no stretch to imagine N's duping their therapists or other 12-steppers with their own endlessly improvised fictions, and if not? It is too easy to drop out and move on, just like they do with us regular people. To truly improve in therapy anyway, people have to be motivated and work really hard, and even court ordered counseling can only force attendance, not motivation or sincere participation. Furthermore, to truly improve oneself in any way one has to question oneself, be willing to feel vulnerable and uncomfortable - all things N's absolutely refuse to experience under any circumstance.

Does therapy make N's worse? My guess is that the only therapy they are comfortable staying in actually would. It is tough to say this, but because they will avoid any therapist that sees through them and attempts to truly change them, I think it is true. You could also say any relationship that is comfortable to the N will also make them worse over time - because it supports them on some level as being fundamentally "ok" in someone else's eyes. "Successful" N's seem to always have some circle of people who are wiling to appease them, and it really ruins the attempts of their victims and targets to challenge them.

I will try not to go on a rampage here, but when an N BECOMES a therapist, I know they absolutely do become way worse. My N parent became one, and it is eerily similar to the stories here about N parents who use the religion stick to beat their kids down. Psychology is a lot like a secular religion in that it gives parameters for behavior, defines norms and can be used to authoritatively define right and wrong. And like religion, it can be abused by people who use it for manipulation, personal power and the control and abuse of others, instead of what it can be used for: sincere insight, help and guidance - whether as an authority or as a patient.

Anonymous said...

"Character disordered personalities are worsened by 12-step programs."

So true! My MN mother and father divorced some 25 years ago. My father is a life-long alcoholic. My MN mother started attending Alanon right after the divorce.

My MN mother is the most vile, evil, dangerous person I have ever known. I've stayed safely out of her reach since I was a teen. However, I had enough contact with her during her start in Alanon to witness just how this program validated her parasitic existence.

Not only could the evil MN mother continue to blame all her failings and misery on the alcoholic, she could get support for doing so. She was instantly awarded tea and sympathy for marrying an addict. I shudder to think how she played that crowd with her hard done by act.

The only friends she has are the ones she met in Alanon. Go figure. And, to this day, 25 years later, she is still blaming the alcoholic for everything! Even though, my parents have had absolutely no contact for 25 years! Talk about milking the victim card!

Another thing I noticed about MN mother was that she used what she was learning as weapons. Those stupid catch-phrases, slogans and 12-steps were just ammunition for her attacks. For example, she picked-up the phrase low-self worth and on one rare occasion that I saw her, she looked me up and down, and with an evil glint in her eye and a smug smirk said, "You have low self-worth".

Alanon was perfect for that toxic witch. She could go to meetings, play the victim and be rewarded and then gather information from the meetings and use what she was learning to harm others, all the while feeling so self-satisfied at the noble way she was involved in a 12-step program. Did I get an amends?! Hell no!

Years later I checked the program out for myself and was not surprised to find clones of MN mother. All these deluded, manipulative, toxic narcissists thinking they're disguising their true nature by playing evolved 12-stepper. Truly nauseating! And they came in all ages and were both men and women.

Beware indeed! If you want to go to a Malignant Narcissist convention just hit a 12-step meeting.

Anonymous said...

My ex MN 'friend' went therapist shopping until he found one who told him exactly what he wanted to hear. He's the victim, he can't help it, it's his parents' fault, blah blah blah. It's such a scam. The MN finds validation and approval for his toxic behavior, and the therapist gets a long-term paying customer. What a joke. A sad, unfunny joke.

krl said...

In regard to 'addicts and Ns' and the 12-step programs:

I was in AA for about a year and a half and found it helpful...but only up to a point. I look back now, and realize that when I put the bottle away....I had literally 'put it away'. BUT, I 'put it away' for ONE REASON....not because I came to this decision after attending AA...but because I had already made a conscious commitment to LIVE IN TRUTH AND REALITY....and drinking after work was getting in the way. Going to meetings during that time supported THAT commitment of mine (To live in Truth and Reality). You are right that to quit the act of tipping the bottle or popping the pill or whatever...in and of itself is not the 'cure'. The layers of behaviours and belief systems that surround the addiction is crucial in 'sobriety'. "Create in me a clean heart, O God....and renew a Right Spirit within me." If that isn't foremost, I believe (and observed) that one will remain in the addictive cycle...the heart of which is hard and cold and self-absorbed.

I observed many types of people within the meetings.....who were there for many reasons. For some, it was another 'social network'...they needed to 'belong' to a 'group' or 'label'. Some needed to talk about 'how bad they were'....I could go on and on. But, there WERE those who truly, deeply, had worked on changing the behaviours in their lives...the habitualness...and most often it was a Spiritual Awakening and sharing of THAT as opposed to spouting all the cliches and slogans and groupie 'rahrahs'. I'm not sorry that I attended....I'm not sorry that I'm not now...It was what it was for me and I can't say I didn't walk away with some very good things.

I'd like to point out that Ns ALWAYS use and twist something that is good in itself. I don't think that because an N can hide (and worsen) within the folds of an AA group...or therapy....or the church...etc.....makes it 'bad' in and of itself. What is WRONG about it, is the ignorance and stupidity of some within that framework that can't/won't SEE it and call them on it. Evil will always lurk in Good....but it can't abide Truth. Truth is Good...but 'good' isn't Truth. See what I mean?

I hope this made a little sense....I'm not gifted enough to encompass the whole subject...and I know what I said it not meant as a blanket statement. I DID see it all 'going down' in the 12-step program circles....(as well as in the church....and therapy..) and it saddened me to see things become so twisted within. Addiction is based on patterns of behaviour. It is judged and manifest...based on behaviour. No escaping it....It is a Soul Issue...and if one is not willing to come under Soul Scrutiny...there is no Hope. God is Merciful...but ya gotta DO the work...gotta be humbled...gotta walk in His precepts, His ways, and trust Him for strength and grace...and blessing in Endeavor.

Anna's lucky offspring said...


Narcissism isn't a disability; it's a character defect. They don't hand out handicap placards for that.

Anonymous said...

to krl

well put, especially your third paragraph.

Katrina said...

"Successful" N's seem to always have some circle of people who are willing to appease them, and it really ruins the attempts of their victims and targets to challenge them.

That has been the nightmare stage my life has been played out on these past 20 yrs. of raising my family in the same hometown as my Nsis Jezebel. It started out as us raising (our combined 12 kids) in the same neighborhood, church, school, etc. I thought we were best friends & the luckiest girls in the world to have each other, as the rest of our huge family of sibs had all moved away for college & never came back. The "tiny"nuances,teasing,secretiveness,competitiveness,exclusion with friends, snippiness,etc--that puzzled me over those yrs.,I just chalked up to her quirks,etc. Yet over the past 5 yrs, I realized there was something way more sinister brewing below the surface. Little by little it came out, until she lost control & spewed her vile vomit over me like an erupting volcano. She showed me nothing short of that she HATES me, & I had no idea how LONG she had, or WHY.Or how I could've been so stupid & fed her all my secrets, emotions,weaknesses & vulnerabilities, ALL THAT TIME! It blew me away. It has been like a betrayed spouse coming full circle for me. First I had to believe the unbelievable. Then I had to learn to accept it. The first thing I did --after many pleading attempts to "talk out" whatever the problem could have been--at which I was literally laughed at in her mocking voice--was GO NO CONTACT. For anyone that thinks it ends there--PUT YOUR ARMOUR ON!!! That's where the war STARTS for a N. She now has turned my entire family of NS Sibs against me with her lies about me, & rewriting history. Also my neighborhood, many from my church & schools, & many former( & present & future) aquaintances. She is bad bad bad to the core,-yet comes out smelling like a rose, as she plays the game so well. Does all the right things socially, & is a popular "pillar of the community". HAHA!!
My tears have turned to laughter. But I no longer despair. I live my life in a very strong manner, with the people that matter. I try to keep as much info from her as possible, as she continues to stalk me thru any innocently willing supplier she can. She namedrops our name, gets nuggets that she can rewrite, & puts them out there with her new spin. Though WE have no contact with her. HANDICAPPED???!!! HAHAHA!! Surely you jest, Miss Angela. (Offspring--love the Placard analysis). I have to keep secret from this woman, once my "confidante" that in the past month my teenage daughter,HER GODCHLD, had surgery to have
cancer removed, & my mother in law had a stroke & brain surgery & we moved her in with us. As much as I need support, I now would never turn to any of the normal folks a person would. As she has tainted that for me. To find out I'm "down", would just bring on her finding a way to "kick me".
Why would any person have such a response to the above news? Because IT OUTSHINES HER!!!!!
SHE doesn't have a child with cancer. SHE doesn't have a mother in law to take in. It might make ME look better/holier/more important/etc than her. She CAN'T have that! I might get
(hello-warranted?) ATTENTION and sympathy. Which has ALWAYS brought her to a slow boil. Hell hath no fury as a cowardly Nwoman scorned-in-her-own-mind. I am eternally grateful for finding "Anna's" blog. (Yes, Anna, keep preserving your identity from Haters). It has allowed me to put a name on the MOST evil form of evil--the Covert.
It has allowed me to withstand the torrents of barbs sent my way, AFTER my soul & common sense & love of God's Truth & Kindness told me it would be wrong to offer myself up as a sacrifice to this abuse. To go No contact, in a world that says NC with Family is wrong. It's amazing to me that in this enlightened age of advocating against domestic violence, we are still expected to endure THIS evil perpetrated against us. Angela actually did us all a favor in REMINDING us of that. Lest we get too complacent in our battle stance against this form of evil.
If not US, than WHO? Katrina

Anna Valerious said...

Yes, Anna, keep preserving your identity from Haters

Ha. Love it. Yes, indeedy. Angela's comment only underscores an important reason to keep my identity to myself. People like Angela would love to know my name, address and SSN and then make my life a living hell so full of love of the narcissist is she. I also noticed the hilarious irony of how Angela was "cowering" behind her computer with anonymity as she accused me of doing. Click on her blogger ID and even her profile is closed. Pssshaaaw. So fulla shit. You go first, Angela. What's your real name and location? Hmmm?

I use an obvious pseudonym because I am being upfront about the fact that I'm not using my real name. I could have picked a real looking name like "Donna LaJolla" and people would not think it was a pseudonym thereby giving me credit for bravely showing myself. I claim no such credit. I am not ashamed of using a pseudonym. That's what smart people on the internet do. Point is: people can pretend to use their real identity when they are not. I make no such pretense. Even when using a pseudonym I'm being real. I started out with the pseudonym, as I've said before, because I was primarily concerned about protecting the identity of my guilty family. As my blog has gained some profile and decent traffic the benefits to myself of keeping my identity private are clearly demonstrated. Angela being a good case in point. Pissed off narcissists and their appeasers are capable of anything.

Okay. I'm getting wordy. I want to thank everyone for all your responses to Angela. You have all been quite eloquent and I am proud to see each of you standing up against the perfidious assertions of the drive-by commenter. You all get A's in my book. :o) Katrina, your story is compelling. Thank you for sharing. I'm glad to know this blog is helping you stay sane in the insanity. God bless you and your family and I hope your daughter is on her way to wellness.

Anonymous said...

Angela...boy, you are sure getting a lot of attention here. Too bad! You sound like my goody-two-shoes sister-in-law.

You are totally ignorant of malignant narcissism and the damage it does to a child of one. You are encouring people to put up with horrendous abuse. Yes, we can feel some compassion for them, but from a distance. They are dangerous, destructive, mean-spirited people aware of what they are doing. AND THEY DO THIS TO THEIR CHILDREN WITH FULL AWARENESS causing extreme pain and the need for years and years of therapy.

We are not spreading hate...we are recommending self defense. And for your information it is the evil narcissists who spreads hate.

We have been victims long enough trying to do the right thing only to be slapped in the face. It is truly a matter of self defense. When it comes to an evil narcissist, one is just banging ones head against a brick wall. Maybe you should try that!

Perhaps you are an evil narcissist yourself. Perhaps you are just totally IGNORANT.

Anyways, stay away from our blog. The band of devoted wackos here has sufferend enough! We don't need a dangerous creep like you preaching to us!

Anonymous said...

By the way, great post, Anna. Always so much to learn. Sorry that Angela took up all my post! Unbelievable spouted garbage! That's what keeps decent, kind, caring, innocent people so stuck in destructive, abusive relationships.

You are wonderful, Anna. Keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

"My ex MN 'friend' went therapist shopping until he found one who told him exactly what he wanted to hear."

Anonymous (Sept./18, 6:01 PM)-
I could have written that post. My ex-N friend did the exact same thing! He paid a therapist $75 an hour, once a week to validate his failed relationships, poor career decisions, and blow smoke up his arse.

The therapist had to have known that he had NPD, but I suppose rather than opening that can of worms, it was easier to nod, agree, take the money and run.

Anonymous said...

get this...my extremely nm went to a psychic...and the psychic PROVED she is right. He told her that she and the Golden child are the only two "normal" ones in the family. She actually called members of our extended family to tell them this! As many of her own children have gone "nc," she has to keep making her case...crazy...but true to her becaseu it confirms her beliefs.

Anonymous said...

The N in my life had this advice for anyone who rejected her abuse: "Let go and let God." No apology or remorse for her actions, nothing. Everyone should just let it go. Al-Anon and God were on her side. I think that is what the AR is trying to say.

noxpennatus said...

Hi Anon @ Sep. 16 8:34,

Don't be too worried. I think your son's health teacher's "love for self" is more of healthy self-respect instead of narcissist self-love. It's probably more like "be proud of who you are, have a healthy body image, say 'no' to drugs". *smile* Kinda depends on the context; context is everything. All the same, it wouldn't do harm to clarify the difference between self-love and self-respect.

Dear Angela Romano,

The cold hard truth is that you don't know in the slightest what you're talking about. As you can see from all the other posts replying to you, you forgot to do your homework on NPD. Attacks on others' characters should at the very least have facts to back them up.

I am sure there are many more things we all wish to tell you, but I think it's going to be hard to reason with someone who has their mind made up so firmly. One can only hope you will be a wiser Christian as you gain experience. All the luck be with you.

Hiya, Anna:

Wonderful post, as always. Your blog keeps so many of us sane and informed, and it's fun to read too!

There's a Chinese proverb that means something like "a boat passing through water leaves no marks behind". Let unfounded accusations keep slidin' right off the windshield.

Sorry for this extra-long comment. Rock on, Anna.

Survived_An_A-1_Narcissisit said...

Thank you for this blog! Having been a survivor of a horrible N friendship, I've been searching for sites to help me understand better, just what went wrong. It has taken me a long while to know that it was not me, that nothing I did could have ever made this friendship end happily.
Ironically, as I was reading through the comments, I came across your "drive by commentor", who used the same first name as my ex-N-friend, and it eerily sounds like the very same person, word for word. In the ten years I knew this person, I could almost recite the very words she has spoken to anyone who dares to stand up to her, and this commentor smacks of the very same preachy crap, right down to the Shame On You, and the "Disability Acts" question.

I just thank you all for sending really great comments back to this person. I can only hope that she came back and read them. It is about time someone stands up to her, even if it's not the same person, every N needs someone to stand up to them, even if they never will "get" that they are in the wrong.
This person is not naive, she knows full well she's a narcissist, she needed to read your comments.

Sadly, the person she is living with, will someday be coming to blogs like this for support as well.

Anyway, thank you. This is a great blog, thank you for letting me know what I've suspected for so long!

Helga Bazinga said...

I'm a psychology student, and needed to find information on narccissist personality.
Though your blog is older and no longer active, I just wanted to say thank you for such an informative site, with first hand accounts.
I also had to comment, because I found the "Angela" person quite entertaining in her ignorance.
I would love to see a reply from her, with so many intelligent, well informed responses to her little temper tantrum.
I know her, I know her real name, though her first name truly is Angela, she loves to use names of cheeses as her pseudo last name. Gorgonzola, Romano, what next, Ang?
Anyway, she is a narccissist herself, and obviously does no wrong, so she'd clearly never revisit the site, and risk being proved wrong!

Thank you again for this site, it's a great help to my studies.

Anna Valerious said...

Cool, Helga Bazinga, I'm very happy to hear this blog is helping you in your studies. If you're able to get a true grip on what narcissism is then you'll be in a good position to help people afflicted by them. You'll also be better able to discern when you're being confronted by one if you end up being a therapist.

Interesting info you give on Angela Romano. She was seriously out-gunned here on this blog so I'm not surprised either that she vamoosed. Dumb bitch.

Hey, I'm entertained by your pseudonym. If that isn't a pseudonym, then I apologize for being entertained. :) Best to you in your studies.