IRONY UPDATE BELOWI am linking to the guest article on Violent Acres because I resonate completely with this young woman's argument for being judgmental. I, too, am a judgmental bitch. Which is why I have been able to extricate myself from the pestilential and tyrannical narcissists in my life. I highly recommend being judgmental. In fact, I insist on you using good judgment all the time on my blog. Engaging your brain in order to assert some order and control over your life is called using judgment.
I dedicate this article to the last commenter on the post "But Wait, There's More!" who went way out of their way to excuse Shrek in order to make me into the bad guy. There is no time when it more obviously paramount to use judgment than when dating. For pete's sake, the whole reason for dating is to determine (i.e. JUDGE) if someone is a good match for you. You can't determine that fact without using judgment. I am so sick and tired of people thinking judgment is a bad word I could SCREAM. Instead, I am calmly pointing you to the eloquent rant of the above blogger. My sentiments exactly, sista.
"Anonymous", I have good judgment. I can't account for your bad judgment. You apparently have an ax to grind with me; someone you've never met and who is minding my own business here on my blog. Your comment says a hell of a lot more about you than it does me.
[IRONY UPDATE INSERTED HERE]
Seems to me that "Anonymous" gets pretty high on her/his judgmental horse while deciding that I've been too judgmental. Come on. Where is the logical consistency?! Anonymous gets a pass on their inconsistency and judgmentalism by the idiocy of mainstream non-logic. It is okay, nay, good and righteous, to judge those who are judgmental. Kind of like it is permissible to be racist as long as it is whites that you hate. Bahhh. Mental and moral midgets all. Yeah, that's a judgment.
Right. On.
ReplyDeleteAs a society, we are more critical and judgemental about the products we put in our hair or the lotions we smear on our faces than the guys we allow into our bodies and who father our children...(if you are a guy....do the 'translation'). But, God FORBID, we 'judge' a PERSON! O MYYYY!
Near as I can tell, this blog is about 'rightly dividing the Truth from the Lie'.....not about Ms. Manners or looking for the RightChemistry....especially in relationships! Isn't this WHY we are where we are? Looking to find out 'What the Hell happened to my Life?'
krl
It is precisely because Ns warp and distort reality that we need to be judgemental. It's our only defence. Call it acting on instinct, if you wish.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your bluntness, Anna. Direct and not afraid to speak your mind? Atta girl!
I have been in therapy for a couple of months now because of a past job experience in which I dealt with what I believe to be a narcissistic coworker. At the end, when I quit that job, I started thinking about the fact that I may have been overly judgmental about this coworker. I realize that everyone has their ways and no one really wants to be judged. I thought that maybe I had been a "judgmental bitch" toward this individual, so I was discussing this in my latest therapy session because I felt so badly about the whole situation. I don't think of myself as being normally judgmental, but I think that there does come a time when you have to make judgments about people and if you can deal with a person's faults, flaws, warts and all, then that person is someone that you are willing to allow into you life. If you come to a judgment about someone and you dislike/hate more things about the person than you like, then no, that person should not take up any room in your life. Not everybody likes everybody that they come into contact with, so I don't understand why it's considered so bad to make a judgment against someone, especially if we don't want that person around us. So what if everyone else happens to get along with that individual, it doesn't mean that I have to get along with that person. But yeah, I have experienced alot of guilt over this whole idea about being judgmental.
ReplyDeleteThere is never anything morally wrong about judging bad behavior as being wrong and unacceptable. People seem to end up neck deep in shit because they will keep refusing to call Bad by its right name. They excuse Bad. Ignore Bad. Overlook Bad. They assume that person "can't help being Bad". They assume that mean people are really just wounded souls who can be healed with unconditional acceptance of all their behavior. This lack of the use of judgment only HURTS people. And it enables Bad people to keep on being Bad.
ReplyDeleteAbout myself: I'm really a rather easy going person. I can and do get along with a lot of different kinds of people. I am willing to overlook flaws and mistakes because I'm am flawed and make mistakes. I am not quick to assume the worst about someone.
What has changed about me since I picked up the clue phone: I will no longer overlook consistent patterns of bad behavior and refuse to call it what it is: bad. I will not bust my ass to "preserve the dignity" of someone who has no dignity. I will not respect those who behave disrespectfully. I will not be shamed by those who condemn me for using my judgment to determine when someone is a jerk, an ass, a creep, a pervert, a narcissist, etc. A narcissist by any other name, is still a narcissist. Calling a narcissist by their right name early on and in the first place will save a hell of a lot of time and misery.
There is no excuse for bad behavior in adults. There may be reasons, but reason can't be substituted for excuses. This is because adults have lived long enough to know better and are accountable for their own behavior. Period. Unless they are insane. If that is case, lock 'em up and throw away the key.
I don't know if this occurred to anyone else, but my first thought when reading 'anonymous' comment on 'But wait, there's more' was that this was actually from the guy your daughter rejected.
ReplyDeleteIts always that 'methinks he protesteth too much' thing which makes you wonder why somebody should attack you with such venom. I have had such comments on my blog, and I always get the sneaky feeling they are from somebody with an axe to grind, rather than being from an objective observer.
Hi Jordie,
ReplyDeleteI definitely get the sense the commenter has an ax to grind with me, but I sincerely doubt it is "Shrek" himself. Yes, the comment was definitely fashioned as a personal attack on me. If I were to guess, I think this person is one of the cronies of Sam, the owner of the group that started a libel campaign against me last September that I dared to expose on my blog. The commenter said I take pleasure in "critiquing" "so-called narcissists". I never called Sam a narcissist, but a commenter or two did. This just sounds like sour grapes to me. So-called narcissists? If I am not describing real narcissists on this blog then narcissism doesn't exist.
This commenter was in a real dilemma. First, they felt the need to, for whatever reason, minimize my blog by saying I'm only criticizing normal people with normal faults, i.e. "so-called narcissists". But in the process of their necessity to minimize my blog, they also minimized the insult. To say I'm not much better than the "so-called narcissists" I "take pleasure in critiquing" means I'm not much better than normal folk? Okay. I can agree with that. I make no claims to be better than normal folk. This is one example that illustrates to me that someone out there has felt personally insulted by me. That leads me straight to Sam and her crowd of sycophants. I know it isn't any of my family because they would attack me much differently. It doesn't sound like "Shrek". This commenter sounds very female to me. Besides that, I think Shrek would defend himself very differently than this.
Anyway, this is a wee bit of my analysis of this commenter. Sam's original accusation against me was that I was stealing "ideas" from her group by being a spy in her group. Calling me a spy explains how I could be "stealing ideas" when I wasn't even in her stupid group. A baseless accusation as I have hard, black and white proof against her main accusation that I "stole" the idea for analyzing my sister's non-apology letter. Anyway, it is all in the archives. I know Sam's little cretins keep checking back at my blog to feed their delusions about me. I think this person is one of these angry, bitter and paranoid little, um, people.
And if it isn't one of Sam's cronies, then maybe this person who hides behind the Anonymous moniker would kindly attack me in the future using a real name. Have some balls. There is something very cowardly about commenting anonymously when you use my blog's comment field to attack my character. Where is your blog so I can respond to you personally? Hmmm? You leave me no option but to address the comment here, publicly, on my blog. Which, because I am obviously dealing with a small-minded soul, I have not in any way addressed the absurdity of the whole of your comment. You try to set me up to look like a bad guy. If I don't post your comment that means I have "something to hide". If I mount a defense against your absurdity then you can accuse me of attacking you. Your comment, oh brave Anonymous, on 1.21.08 @ 12:20:00 PM, is a demonstration of your cowardice. Don't expect future comments of yours along this line to be approved unless you show yourself.
ReplyDeleteCould be one of two kinds of people:
ReplyDeleteNarcissists or those who secretly side with such people in the name of "righteousness and kindness".
OF COURSE you have to judge, that is called "using your brains". What people mean when they say that you are judgemental is most of the time about them not wanting to be confronted by you. They have no problem with you liking blue, yet not liking say orange. Or loving coffee but rejecting tea.
ReplyDeleteWhen you have been raised in a dysfunctional family you feel guilty about all kinds of things; it's just a symptom of your upbringing. If you don't like somebody, by all means get out.
Let me tell you this. I met this woman who constantly whines about everything and everybody. She told me about her friend's abortion. How about some integrity? But MY mistake was to continue having contact (albeit very little and mostly via email). I should have told her: I do not trust you, you have seriously breached somebody's confidence which only means trouble for me in the future. Hasta la pasta. And you complain too much.
But since I have been raised by one crazy, violent father and a seriously self-absorbed mother (who must be an N imo), I have developed a low threshhold. Of course I did not like this woman talking about her friend's abortion. The best thing was that she was making it about herself! About how hard it was on HER, since she wants kids. I could have actually met this friend, since the lamenting one loves to play the hostess with the mostest. But I have pissed her of and now I have told her bye bye after she sent me a fuming email :))
My point: I need to become a hell of a lot more judgemental.
Closely related is the abuse of the word 'discriminate.' I think that it is smart to discriminate. Unfortunately, the PC crowd have almost succeeded in ascribing the meaning of 'predudice' to it, something that is not smart to do.
ReplyDelete-Cassandra
"Narcissists or those who secretly side with such people in the name of righteousness and kindness".
ReplyDeleteThat's been my experience. Many of these N's keep mini-narcissists around them as attack dogs. I know a person like this, always wanting desparately to go with what they perceive as the majority in a given situation. If confronted for their shadiness and spinelessness, they are every bit as crafty and manipulative as the full-blown N they so need the approval of.
On the other hand, there are N's that seem to enjoy being contrary just to be contrary, as if difference alone means something special or is virtuous. N's seem to love being the center of attention, even if my experience is that they act as thought they don't.
The person that Anna took some offense with may be a "spy" or someone that is having a hard time accepting some harsh truths about N's. I was the same way for a long time, not wanting to believe that someone I loved could be so monstrouss.
I have occassionally sniped at people that told me the truth about my N and N's in general in a no holds barred way. It wasn't that I was angry at them, per se, but angry, and actually a little scared, for I knew the awful truth but wasn't ready to emotionally accept it. Honestly, I still have some trouble accepting the truth and all of the awful truth it implies. So, long story short, perhaps this person is just using defensive anger/dissmissivness as a defense mechanism. If so, and if they're not a spy, I hope they can eventually come to accept the truth about these people and direct that anger/frusteration into healing.
When the prey of an N finds people who BELIEVE him or her -- it may be easy to lose sight of the critical element articulated by Chris. That is deniability. When people without Awareness read something about an N, there's bound to be a good deal that falls into that amorphous area of deniability. So they make excuses for the N --- and it really is understandable. Does this make sense? Yeah, we seem judgemental -- because N behavior is so damn deniable. Deniability is a very interesting quantity.
ReplyDeleteI know this is a little late, but mind if I put a comment in? Vaknin admits himself that he is a Narcissist. Why would an intelligent person take advice from someone who they know is using his "condition" to get attention? Unbelievably stupid. Incidentally, that rant sounds like something my stepson would write in defense of himself and his crazy mother and sister. God save us from Shrek.
ReplyDeleteI do have a question, do you have any information regarding getting past N experiences and letting it go? My husband and I have basically withdrawn from society because of all the garbage that's been spread about us. We are even considering moving to another state. I personally live with a dread of them trying to force themselves on our attention again. I guess I'm obsessing about it, or maybe I'm just paranoid but the ex is truly demonic. Thanks.
To clarify: the "Sam" referred to above is not Sam Vaknin. "Sam" is female...Samantha.
ReplyDeleteAs for quoting Sam Vaknin. I do it on rare occasion; I am not incredibly stupid. Just because he is a self-confessed narcissist doesn't mean he doesn't have anything to say that is true. I use my extensive understanding of the subject to analyze what he says. Yeah, he says a lot that is pure bullshit, but when I can see that he is saying something that is true...as it is weighed against my judgment, not his, then I will quote him without compunction. I don't think he adds much of value to the conversation on NPD for victims of NPD which is why I think I've only quoted him twice on my whole, rather extensive blog. Once was my most recent post. This can give you some indication of how much value I put on his insights. Not much.
WiW,
ReplyDeleteThe biggest part of getting over the abuse of a narcissist is to go completely no contact. The reason is because it is hard for a wound to heal when it keeps getting re-opened. Going no contact is a first and vital step if you are going to be able to more quickly get over what they've done to you. It is not possible to get over a crime in progress which continued contact enables.
After that, informing yourself on what narcissists really are and how they operate is important for getting over it. The reason for this is because we tend to fear that we'll be duped, caught, abused and trapped by another narcissist in the future. Understanding what makes narcissists tick gives you a sense of control over your future and your life. One should not ever get over confident on dealing with these people, but you can learn enough to be able to spot them quickly and extricate yourself with little difficulty. When you get a firm handle on the knowing the beast, you'll fear it less. This lends itself to giving you peace again and the ability to move on.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the clarification. I've gotten used to "Sam" being Vaknin because he is often quoted on other sites. BTW, I didn't mean that you are incredibly stupid, I meant that he has created a devoted following that seems to swallow every word he says. That, in my humble opinion, is incredibly stupid. Personally, I found his writing deliberately obtuse, designed to obfuscate rather than enlighten and generally self gratifying. Rather like masturbating in public and being cheered on by a crowd of deviants. Sorry, I know that is a little gross. Thanks also for the assistance.
ReplyDeleteI think my concern about what they will do next stems from the fact that they never have shut up about us. They just keep spreading their fantasies to anyone that will listen.
WiW,
ReplyDeleteI didn't really think you thought I was incredibly stupid. I wasn't offended, but I thought I should clarify my position on Vaknin since you brought him up. I certainly agree with the big circle jerk that is Vaknin and his followers. You are right, that kind of unquestioning devotion to a malignant narcissist is incredibly stupid. Beyond incredibly stupid. I have to wonder about their agenda...or their intelligence. Or both. I also detest Vaknin's use of the English language. I agree that he is much more into obfuscation than clarification although one of the best essays on how the narcissist perverts the use of language was written by him.
The slander you have been subjected to is not something you have control over, unfortunately. But going completely no contact can eventually leave them with little to say...and little ability to prove that what they say is true. No contact is really the only recourse you have to start over and minimize the effect of the slander campaign. I am very sorry for this. I know what it feels like and I know the sense of helplessness in the face of this cruel tactic. Removing yourself from everyone who is in any way associated with the narcissist, as well as the narcissist, is about all you can do. Those who have sided with the narcissist and lapped up the slander like nectar have revealed themselves to be just as dangerous to you as the narcissist is. Moving to another state is actually a very good idea. I have done so and have reduced the impact of my mother's slander campaign against me to zero. She can say whatever she wants to whomever she wants because I hear none of it. No one in her circle has remained in my circle. Her lies can't affect me because I never hear them. No one I associate with now ever hears them. Her world has been separated from mine completely. Peace reigns.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was feeling that moving would be "running away" in a sense. Like I was afraid of them, which I NEVER want them to believe. I despise them for their evil, and hold anyone in contact with them in utter contempt. They deserve to be deceived by them because a wise person would question why they are spewing all this garbage. But, I've found that most "christians" put their brains on hold. That is the worst offense of all.
ReplyDeleteSorry, for ranting. I was raised in the ministry (from a long line of ministers) by extremely legalistic parents, and have experienced much misteaching myself. I was always made to feel guilty for not "turning the other cheek" and being "bigger" than other people. I'm still sorting through it all, and I'm in my late 40's. :) I guess there are just some things that take a long time to get past.
Anyway, moving does feel right to me because it is the way of peace. Staying here only makes me more suspicious and untrusting of others.
Isn't it interesting how when people say, "You're judgemental," it's meant as an insult? Also, when people say, "Don't be so judgemental" or "Don't judge" or "Judge not", they really mean "Don't tell me what I can and can't do. I do what I want! Nyah!"
ReplyDeleteJudging isn't always a negative thing. You can judge someone as beautiful, intelligent, kind, etc. and I doubt anyone will jump on you with the J-word. You're allowed (and even encouraged) to judge others as long as you're agreeing with them in some way. If you're a sycophant, judging is your cup of tea.
If no one is allowed to or supposed to judge, then how come no one gets mad when someone says they're smart and wonderful? THAT is judging others.
How come when people say "He who is without sin cast the first stone," they always leave out the very next part where Jesus says to the woman, "Go and sin no more." He wasn't saying don't JUDGE. He was saying, don't condemn. He didn't condemn her to a stoning death, but he DIDN'T hold back His judgement of her behavior as sin, either. He said it straight out, honestly and plain as day. Funny how no one wants to remember THAT part of the verse.
Judging is also discerning. We always judge, we MUST judge. We have every right to judge. It doesn't mean we are bad or wrong or hateful. It means we understand right and wrong and have an opinion.
I am of course against anyone going overboard and beating someone over the head with condemnation, but I don't think we're talking about that.
Judging is essential to having an identity.
Being raised in a very religious atmosphere by a mother whom I am beginning to recognize is a narcissist and an emotional absent father, the "being judgmental" issue is one I understand well. I also spent several years working for a minister that turned out to be narcissistic. Yay.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have come to realize is that the injunction made by Jesus to "judge not lest you be judged' is talking about the personal determination whether someone else is going to hell or will be 'saved' and is 'worth' saving.
In other places, the Bible TELLS us to JUDGE.
"Test all things; hold fast what is good."
1 Thessalonians 5:21 NKJV
What does this mean except to JUDGE whether something is good or not? Jesus is our example, as Christians. Did he, while he was here, ever judge anyone?
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness." Matthew 23:27 NKJV
This was a SEVERE judgment. The word judgment has, I think become a 'bad word.' Understanding the true definitions of words helps. Every time we open the refrigerator and sniff the milk, we are 'passing judgment' on whether it is fit to drink or not. If we do not 'judge' whether individual people in our lives are good or bad for our own mental health, we are, I think, being irresponsible.
Blog on, Anna, you are helping me untangle the webs in my own life. Thanks.
One of the greatest challenges I've noted with ACONS-actually, there's a couple, but they're all related-is our INABILITY to make decisions/use our judgement particularly regarding relationships /other people with whom we interact. And it makes a lot of sense since we grew up with "Parents" who routinely engaged in gas lighting, lying, obfuscation, diversion etc. We don't trust ourselves OR our perceptions. At All.
ReplyDeleteOur "bar" for unacceptable behavior is set somewhere below the sub-basement parking garage (if not just plain busted) so we'll tolerate a whole lot more objective (i.e., seen from the "outside") unacceptable behavior than the average person. We're beyond "tolerant" of BS to the point we're now covered in the stench of some other MN/CB (Cluster B) due to the MN/CB's Projection Machine tactics and our willingness to "go along to get along" and abject fear of being perceived as meanies, "judgemental," "intolerant" etc. We're Prime Candidates for The Cult of Nice/PC-ness while supplying a USDA Grade A Prime Feed to some other MN/CB.
The point is, we'll NEVER gain the confidence we need and take the "Lessons Learned" from our CB FOOs forward in a useful way UNLESS we start EXERCISING our judgement. This is the *only* way I know of to start the process of truly shaking off the CB FOO Legacy. Like a muscle, ya gotta use it or loose it, ya gotta exercise it; otherwise, it atrophies.
If we're wrong? So what? That other person (believe it or not) doesn't need your approval or lack thereof to go on with their lives. Likewise, NEITHER DO YOU need their's to move forward with your own. Chances are (especially as an ACON) by the time you pick up the cues and ACKNOWLEDGE them to yourself, you're long past the point of "tolerant" and your "non-judgemental" stance has once again landed you in a world of hurt.
While none of us would have chosen to grow up MN/CB-Parented that doesn't mean you haven't learned some valuable Lessons in Life you absolutely need to use to ward off your MNParent(s) or the other CBs you're likely to encounter throughout your life and to respond appropriately in a way that leaves your well-being intact. (<Which includes your dignity and self-respect.)
Intellectual knowledge of concepts like Boundaries etc. are useless unless they translate into your daily life. Having a paradigm in which to think is fine-whether it's gaining knowledge about MNarcs, Cluster B's etc. We're logical creatures and naming "what ails" is necessary but not sufficient to ensure you're truly armed so you "Won't Get Fooled Again" as The Who sung all those decades ago. I've watched as people have talked their knowledge re: MNs/CBs to death (sometimes for years) and continued to find themselves in the same ol', same ol' IRL over and over again. (Huh. Speaking of "Lost in Translation" ;) ) There comes a point IMO where you're no longer a "Victim:" You're a Volunteer. Yeah-gasp! How's that for "Judgemental?!"
When someone accuses you of being "Judgemental," etc., put it through your very experienced MN/CB Translator and hear, "How DARE YOU tell da TRUTH about MEEEEE!"
And then, ACT on it.
Yeah, I know it's hard, it's "uncomfortable" etc. but if you're tangling with a MN or any flavor of CB, you're currently in a damn "uncomfortable" place already. You're no longer a powerless kid-you CAN see the Exit sign and actually use it for it's intended purpose. Umm, yeah, this *is* an Emergency, OK? And here's why: Remaining engaged with NPs/CBs is like giving a 3 yr. old a weapon, complete instructions, unlimited ammo and expecting them to use it responsibly! And just think of the endless Supply your NP could suck out of your/their offspring's death-how's that for some primo "motivation?" ;)
TW