tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post6782381721387461864..comments2024-03-16T14:19:24.563-06:00Comments on Narcissists Suck: How How to Relate to the Badly Behaving and Other QuestionsAnna Valerioushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-64314785722009852072014-07-24T11:09:16.177-06:002014-07-24T11:09:16.177-06:00I have something praiseworthy. I was thinking my ...I have something praiseworthy. I was thinking my God, how do I do all this stuff you are telling me. Not so hard, I babystepped into it last night. <br /><br />I met up with someone from my past who started to talk to me about stuff about my past and family, asking questions. She was nosy. I am working at the food bank and she is a client. I very kindly told her that we are to get on with what we are doing. <br /><br />This was very public, the ladies I work with don't know anything about where I came from and I would like to keep it that way. My crazy mother's favorite tactic was public shame. <br /><br />The reason I say this was a babystep was because I was in control as a volunteer, so she had no choice but to pipe down. But not so long ago I would have just taken the shame no matter what, I was trained to from birth. <br /><br />I feel elated. It was a little painful, but I have learned so much that I know that feeling is the old me. But it took a bit for me to open my mouth, I didn't right away so, too much got said. From now on, I'll have to do it sooner. But I did it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18166248999404159433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-12605933530201093322013-03-30T22:13:24.772-06:002013-03-30T22:13:24.772-06:00Wow, Thank you for this! I recently left a year re...Wow, Thank you for this! I recently left a year relationship with a N and, Its been a true test of my strength. I felt like I was trapped. I couldn't leave the relationship. I could never understand how he could just straight out call me a whore, low-life, piece of shit. Always caught him seeking out if bed to check my emails, phone, etc... I had no privacy. I was starting to think that it was normal, that "if I really loved him, I would let him do it." Help eased his insecurities. He was a "recovering" addict. He had been sober for 15 years, he owned a drug rehab and became very successful at what he did, I admired him for helping people in recovering however, he did it for the wrong reasons. He liked to surround himself and belittle ppl struggling with addiction bc it made him feel better about himself. He was so transparent. Anyway, Ive been NC from him for about a week, which is the longest Ive ever been! I want to be free from his negativity! I wrote this a few days ago to help me get through times of weakness. It helps me, hope it can help someone in the same situation. <br /><br /><br />The thing is, after a while of being in this relationship, I started to find myself feeling like a victim as well. This negative thought pattern is fairly contagious, especially if I’m continually the bad guy. In the end, I was operating on his level, I can point out a million ways in which he's hurt me and I’m here wondering "After all this, how can he still feel like the victim, surely I can make him see everything that he's done to me and he'll be remorseful and try to make it work!" At least, that's how I felt. And then I realized that I was the one who was doing this to myself because I kept coming back for more when it was clear he wasn't going to change. I need to get away. It's not going to help me to dwell on all the ways in which he has hurt me, it's not going to fix the relationship and I’m not going to get any sort of closure from it. I want to Let go of him and let go of his actions.<br /><br />People will tell me he's bad to the bone and I should leave immediately, and my first impulse is to defend him: "he's not that bad. I mean, aside from the lying, cheating, manipulating, privacy invading, controlling, and junkyard dog meanness, he's really a sweet guy. He's misunderstood. Had a hard childhood. (These things I would repeatedly tell my family and little friends I had) And the idea of leaving him feels hard as hell, right? Like it will actually KILL me in a way, yes? Maybe not literally DIE, but the pain I anticipate is humongous, unbearable, not worth it – I’d wish I were dead.<br />The less esteem I will have for myself if I continue this madness and the more I will believe I DESERVE to be treated badly. I can do it now, and it will be hard; or I can do it later, and it will be harder. It's that old Band-Aid analogy. Rip it off, cut all contact, and it's going to hurt like a son-of-a-bitch, or pull slowly away at the edges, ease it off, and the pain feels a bit less intense but lasts a lot longer. Or maybe just wait for that one, unequivocal sign that it's time to leave, like he breaks your jaw or has sex with my dog – I fear the sign never comes, because my tolerance just grows the longer I stay. He knows exactly how far he can go each time, and exactly how to manipulate into feeling pity or defensive or weak so that I’ll stay -- just like he did with that whole "I was gonna tell you, but wanted to wait until you were too in love to leave." I am not powerless! I AM infinite power, joy, beauty and abundance. I used to think "Being with him is better than nothing." But the real truth is: NOTHING is better than being with him."<br /><br />V https://www.blogger.com/profile/07434079108418680726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-9326613946104596172013-02-26T15:30:13.301-07:002013-02-26T15:30:13.301-07:00katy hun, obviously I don't know you but your ...katy hun, obviously I don't know you but your language ping pong is something I am incredibly familiar with. <br /><br />I would be only as valuable as far as I could impress with my vocab and intellect, with my dad. <br /><br />My mum, the MN in my life, would loathe it and so, would have to "talk normally, without big words but also without using the local accent as that would be common"<br /><br />It was pure competition...you will never win and it doesn't matter how flamboyant you are...she doesn't give a shit, she's just making you jump through hoops.<br /><br />Simple, as I have learned from my partner, is to say "Your acting like a dick, see ya later" and then get on with your life.<br /><br />We've been that conditioned to jump through hoops, we even think we are acting empowered when in fact, its just another little trick they have.<br /><br />:/<br />Anne Delorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04094484716124017794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-33838324251786312632008-10-25T21:14:00.000-06:002008-10-25T21:14:00.000-06:00Years ago,a few days before my wedding, my mother ...Years ago,a few days before my wedding, my mother came to my home to visit. She lives across the country. She was wandering around my room poking at things as she always does and looked at two rings on my dresser. The first was a gold ring with garnets that she handed down to me at my grade nine graduation. The second was a diamond ring that had belonged to my Great Aunt that my aunt (her sister) had given to me after my grandmother died and which I wore for eight years.<BR/><BR/>My mother looked at the garnet and said “oh, I see you’ve still got my ring. It’s still mine.” I told her no, that it had been her gift and I’d worn it for eleven years. “no, no, it’s a loan…I see you have Aunt Joan’s ring, too. I tell you what you can continue to wear my ring if you let me wear Auntie’s ring, which is too big for you anyway. Besides, I’m divorced and can’t wear my diamond and you’re just getting married and have a new one…” Anyway, she popped my diamond on her hand and walked away. I asked her for my ring back many times over the years. I told each of my sisters in law when they joined the family never to accept the ring as it was mine.<BR/><BR/>Two years ago my mother left a Leica camera from 1922 in our house. She asked my husband to get it appraised so she could sell it. <BR/><BR/>Segue to 2008. I went to visit my Aunt and my cousin overseas (who had just been married). As I flitted through her wedding album I caught a glimpse of my diamond ring on her finger. My cousin was thrilled and talked at length of the grand gesture my mother made on her wedding day giving her this family heirloom and what an honor it was – ignorant of the fact that it had belonged to me and that her own mother had given it to me. When my cousin left, I started bawling. I asked my Aunt how such a thing could happen. Of course, my Aunt thought I had not wanted her gift (and was terribly hurt) and that I had given it away. Additionally, I discovered that the Leica camera was my Aunt’s gift to my brother, 25 years ago and he never got it – something I could fix. To this day, I am grateful I broke down and talked to my Aunt as she learned the truth about the ring and could understand it had been taken from me.<BR/><BR/>My response was to send the garnet ring back to my mother in the mail with a note that said “while this cannot be fixed without ruining my cousin’s wedding day; you need to understand that your actions were not ok. Further, this garnet ring is tainted with the con played all those years ago. For years I owned two rings and in five minutes you appropriated one and kept ownership over the other. Take this back, I cannot wear it.”<BR/><BR/>The following is the email trail that followed with some references to a call to my aunt (who handled things magnificently):<BR/><BR/>Mother:<BR/><BR/>“You have made a mistake here, I am afraid. Your Uncle gave me that ring, after I gave him my Daddy's wedding ring and he lost it. The ring never was yours and I never gave it to you and your Aunt didn't give it to you. I<BR/>discussed giving the ring your cousin before I did it.<BR/>Their recollection and mine are identical -- we talked about it at the time.<BR/><BR/>So I am sorry you think you have been slighted. I am also pretty pissed off that you thought I could do such a thing to you. I am moreover, hurt that<BR/>you have returned the ring I gave you, which was precious to me, like this.<BR/>At the very least, you ought to have called and talked to me. Then we could have sorted this out properly.<BR/><BR/>I will call on Sunday. I think you owe me an apology. If you wish, as a gesture of love, I will give you one of my other rings, or give you back the Jersey ring.”<BR/><BR/>I didn’t reply - but she sent a second email:<BR/><BR/>Mother:<BR/><BR/>“A gift is something freely given, with affection, love or well-wishing. Had you given the ring to me, I would have been free to do with it as I wished and saw fit -- in giving, you give up ownership.<BR/><BR/>So with the ring. Had you given it to me, you had no business being hurt or offended by anything I might do with it, let alone something that was a loving gesture, returning a family ring to a family member on her wedding day. More generously, you might have been touched and pleased that something special had been done with it. But either way, it is not something over which you<BR/>would have had any say any more, having no ownership. And it is offensive to suggest that I would deliberately not appreciate you and would willingly slight you or any gift from you. You have had a lifetime of my caring, love<BR/>and concern for you. Remember that, instead of getting upset by imaginary slights. You know me better than to think I would dismiss you as you suggest I have done.<BR/><BR/>Now to your response. Giving back a gift is rejecting the love, affection and well-wishing that it was given with. You don't do that unless you mean that you are rejecting, giving back, the love of the giver. It is a huge<BR/>rejection and a major act. It is not merely petty or spiteful (though it is that too); it is rejection.<BR/><BR/>Think about it. You are nearing your middle years, not a child, and this is something ill-considered about which I must speak frankly to you. You<BR/>thought you had been discounted and you were hurt. Fair enough. But -- even had you been correct -- you behaved cruelly. You nsulted me by even considering that I would willingly dismiss, discount or reject you. You rejected my gift and thus my love that came to you with it.<BR/><BR/>You have always had my love, through thick and thin, and you have it still, but I must not let you think that what you did was minor, okay, just something you did because you were upset and so you can expect that I will<BR/>swallow it without protest and just wait for the dust to settle. You have gone too far, and I owe it to my self respect to tell you that it is unacceptable.<BR/><BR/>Do not ever do that to me again. It is not worthy of you, and I do not deserve it.”<BR/><BR/>Well, I just had to reply to that, but I was in a keep it simply mode:<BR/><BR/>Daughter – <BR/><BR/>“You are mistaken. The ring came to me via my Aunt. This is the truth.<BR/><BR/>"You have gone too far, and I owe it to my self respect to tell you that it is unacceptable." These are my sentiments exactly.<BR/><BR/>I cannot pay heed to the lecture if you cannot concede that the ring was ever mine. <BR/><BR/>I am sorry that you cannot see your mistake; that would have made this easier to fix.”<BR/><BR/>To which she replied in three separate emails:<BR/><BR/>Mother - <BR/><BR/>“I have nothing to say” (which I think really means – I’m thinking)<BR/><BR/>And then:<BR/><BR/>Mother –<BR/><BR/>“On second thoughts there is something I want to say:<BR/><BR/>What we have is two different recollections. I don't think that needs to be fixed. It is as it is: it's an explanation. I'm not picking a fight. Are you? If you are, I don't fight with my children. What kind of relationship do you want to have with me? That is up to you.”<BR/><BR/>Right, okay. Yep – I’m picking a fight as you can see; forgetting about certainly gets her off the hook, and means she doesn’t have to admit any wrong doing.. I didn’t reply. But she did:<BR/><BR/>Mother – <BR/><BR/>“Two things need talked about: first, what actually happened; second, How you responded. <BR/><BR/>Dealing only with the first, for now, here's what I have done. I phoned your Aunt today and had a long chat with her. Here's what we managed to put together:<BR/>1. In May 19xx Mummy died and I went over there to Windy Edge.<BR/>2. Your step father and I were breaking up, and after Mummy's funeral he gave me back<BR/>Daddy's ring while we were both still overseas, and I gave it to your Uncle.<BR/>3. Your Aunt gave me the ring, for you, and the Leica, for Andy, she says. I don't remember that, but I am sure she's right. Maybe I never took her instructions in -- it was a very rough time for me, and my husband left as soon as we got back from the trip.<BR/>4. I phoned your brother -- didn't tell him anything of this, just asked him if he ever had the Leica. He said no - I gave to to your husband. But that must<BR/>have been later, because you didn't know your husband yet. You only went with your<BR/>Dad to Canada shortly after your stepfather left me. I remember your dad and stepfather<BR/>sitting at the kitchen table in our old place, telling me how to run my finances.<BR/><BR/>So I seem to have screwed up at least once. Maybe twice - or maybe not. You told your Aunt you remember wearing the ring. I don't remember giving it<BR/>to you or ever seeing you wear it. And I certainly didn't give the Leica to your brother, which apparently I should have done. As far as I can recall (it is<BR/>all 21 years ago, and I was in bad shape between Mummy's death and the<BR/>marriage break-up) I thought they were both for me, because I had given your Uncle my Daddy's ring instead of keeping it.<BR/><BR/>If I gave you the ring, can you remember when? When do you think you gave it back to me.<BR/><BR/>What is clear, however, is that I have only half-remembered what actually happened, and I am sorry about that. I am very worried about my memory, I always thought my Mummy suffered from Alzheimer’s and maybe I am being stricken too. I am very worried. It has made things difficult and you have been hurt. I am sorry about that too. (Your Aunt said she was not hurt by my having the ring instead of you, and just assumed that it was too old-fashioned for you, or something, but she didn't say this to me when we talked about it before your cousin’s wedding, because she didn't want to hurt my<BR/>feelings. Now of course we all wish she had said something, but she didn't and for a kind reason. So it's done and can't be helped now.) We are all agreed your cousin mustn't know about this, you included. Perhaps you would like to Keep the Leica as your brother never did receive it and it was worth more than the ring.<BR/><BR/>I wish you had just phoned me and we could have talked about. I got such a shock when I opened my mail that I was sick for 2 days with a blinding migraine and couldn’t get out of bed. That's the second thing we need to talk <BR/>about, but not yet, I think. We need to clear up first things first.”<BR/><BR/>So – my Aunt called her out and gave her the goods and she was essentially forced to back down.<BR/>But wow – that last email is so full of crap. My poor Aunt is to blame? If only she’d stopped my mother, now mysteriously afflicted with Alzheimer’s? Lovely. Just so you know, she’s never referred to her parents as “Mummy” and “Daddy” only Father and Mother. And the whole divorce crap? Well, I’m more shocked she was married twice than divorced twice. I love that I’m instructed not to tell my cousin she has my ring and that I made her physically ill. Just so you, with typical narcissistic flare, my mother barely clothed us, didn’t cook after I learned how when I was 9 and never hugged or kissed me in my life. She was heartless and cold blooded and we four children lived in servitude. My father and stepfather did attempt to improve our lot, but where run over by her ego. This is just to re-enforce that her emails are fairytales, beautifully crafted, cleverly manipulative, total and absolute lies, sprinkled with just enough truth to have great deniability. If she’s breathing; she’s lying.<BR/><BR/>There – that’s my most recent story. If you stuck with me, you’re a super star. I miss my ring.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09846404468746310728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-60938483284090103792008-10-25T19:30:00.000-06:002008-10-25T19:30:00.000-06:00Thank you, Anna and Anonymous, for clarifying more...Thank you, Anna and Anonymous, for clarifying more about failing the N's tests. Both articles were enlightening.<BR/><BR/>RenewedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-18401460342105931602008-10-24T17:16:00.000-06:002008-10-24T17:16:00.000-06:00Anon, that is a good description of how to identif...Anon, that is a good description of how to identify and deal with Ns. As I was reading it though, I began to wonder if sometimes I do the same things - seeking sympathy, attention, etc.. But I think there is a time where we do correctly offer empathy and sympathy - the trick is to know when to withhold.<BR/><BR/>My MIL, I have discovered through reading, is an N. When my mother died after a long illness, my MIL called after two weeks and said she 'guessed she wasn't good enough to get a thank you card', since my sister had gotten some of her thank you cards out to her friends ahead of me and MIL found out. It has been hard to forget that, even though I try to forgive her for what she is.<BR/><BR/>I've found that I do the 'staring numbly' kind of thing so as not to say what I really think.. it's a self-protective thing that has developed over nearly 40 years, because revealing too much has never been a good thing. It always comes back in some way, and usually twisted around to reflect negatively. After many tears, anger, and trying to get along, I gave up trying and just deal with it this way.<BR/><BR/>I'll call myself Anon2 :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-6078448901646053332008-10-24T14:48:00.000-06:002008-10-24T14:48:00.000-06:00Oh, and one more thing, I also meant the "Gambler ...Oh, and one more thing, I also meant the "Gambler philosophy". Know when to hold them, know when to fold them, and know when to walk away. Something like that.So, what IS in a heart?https://www.blogger.com/profile/00482423451947167280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-79672278604987192172008-10-24T14:36:00.000-06:002008-10-24T14:36:00.000-06:00"http://tinyurl.com/5wbopc"Yes, that is one of Kat..."http://tinyurl.com/5wbopc"<BR/><BR/>Yes, that is one of Kathy's great posts, but I think one needs savvy too in terms of knowing what to look for and how to "make yourself scarce".So, what IS in a heart?https://www.blogger.com/profile/00482423451947167280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-64717396946370720502008-10-24T07:46:00.000-06:002008-10-24T07:46:00.000-06:00When I had had enough and went no contact with a l...When I had had enough and went no contact with a long time N-friend, I really felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me. I began to constantly question myself, my judgement of other people in my life. If someone who I considered a really good friend could orchestrate the damage he did to me, was I that naive/stupid/blind?<BR/><BR/>Six months ago, my mother was very ill with cancer. I called an old friend who lives on the other side of the country, to tell her that we had just found out that she was terminal. I was heartbroken. My mom took an unexpected turn for the worse two weeks later and died. Between making funeral arrangements, cleaning out her house, putting it on the market, taking care of my own family, and my grief, I realized that that I hadn't called S. When I phoned to tell her the news, she said that she figured as much since she hadn't heard from me in so long. <BR/><BR/>My first thought was, I should have called her sooner. That thought was quickly replaced by the fact that she knew that my mother was dying and it never occurred to her to pick up the phone. I was her cheerleader when she decided to change careers, and her rock when she got divorced. I'm no longer interested in continuing our friendship, since it is so one sided, and instead shifted my focus on the good people in my life. Five years ago, the old me would have blamed myself and sucked it up. No more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-37574175518953680082008-10-23T19:39:00.000-06:002008-10-23T19:39:00.000-06:00"I am good at spotting N's now and making sure I d..."I am good at spotting N's now and making sure I do exactly what it takes to fail their 'tests' with flying colors, so that is less of an issue, but still, it is energy consuming."<BR/><BR/>Hi Renewed - I was the "anon" who wrote that - and I'll be glad to elaborate in case it is at all helpful. <BR/><BR/>Once I know someone is an N, one of the main things I do is make sure I do not respond to things that are obviously "cues" for me to behave in specific ways [ie: complimenting, soothing, supporting, or offering of services/favors or any kind of special treatment]. I simply 'play dumb' to ALL hints or cues, say nothing, or make a very minimal neutral statement that does not provide NS. That part is easy, and it can almost be funny to hear them repeat themselves as if saying the same thing twice or three times will get anything more than a blank response from me. The other way I feel tested would be when a N is probing for my weaknesses. This is much more difficult for me, and the part I would consider really energy consuming. That would be when an N is purposely trying to arouse a negative feeling in me: guilt, shame, inadequacy, confusion, fear, panic, etc - in a contrived way in order to manipulate me into providing requested NS or simply to get NS by making me squirm. If they see they can "get" to me via flooding me with negative emotions, then I "lose" the test. If they see I can withstand being thought ill of or maligned or emotionally threatened [shunned etc], and hold my ground, then I "win". However, therein lies the rub. For people raised by N's, those are really hard emotions to "hold your ground" on while someone is pushing them on you. I feel like if an N feels confident that they have a few reliable buttons they can press on me, they will be attracted and hang around. Another "test" is to see if they can hook my hopes with big promises and suggestions or flattery or just simply kindness. Same set-up as the negative emotions, and same especial difficulty for ACON's.<BR/> <BR/>Unlike encounters with normal humans, I feel like it is a game of "capture the flag" and the flag is who is in charge of my emotions, me or an N. These may sound weird, but I have some very simple tricks that have worked to an extent for me: If in person, I will repeat something in my head over and over [she is an N, she is an N etc] while they talk, or basically do anything [like hold my fingers where I can see them in an N shape] to continually remind me who I am dealing with and help keep me objective and in my truth vs "caught up" in their idiotic but effective quicksand. Even just consciously holding something in my pocket can help. For phone, I have a paper and I put a big "N" on it, and then during the conversation I take notes such as: grandiose claim, guilt attempt, one-upmanship etc. While I of course try to avoid contact with N's, the phone thing can actually be kind of funny. Kind of like "N bingo". I mention these things merely as devices I use to keep ME grounded and able to withhold from them the responses they want. <BR/><BR/>I feel that the N's main game is to mimic being a sincere participant in a conversation or exchange while pushng our buttons. These tricks just help me remember that no matter what they do, they are NEVER being a sincere participant. They remind me NOT to act like I normally would with a normal person [like express concern for a problem or respond warmly to kindness]. It helps me to remain objective enough to have the wherewithal to "fail" their tests: not giving special treatment on cue, not being able to be upset by them, and not being easy to hook with hope or kindness, and not to care what their version of reality is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-82172751120532858302008-10-23T14:59:00.000-06:002008-10-23T14:59:00.000-06:00Renewed,Check out Kathy's blog post titled, "Vacci...Renewed,<BR/><BR/>Check out Kathy's blog post titled, "Vaccine for Narcissism" here:<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/5wbopc<BR/><BR/>She talks at length on how to fail the narcissist's tests. :o)Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-48529322039857361252008-10-23T14:38:00.000-06:002008-10-23T14:38:00.000-06:00Anonymous said:"I am good at spotting N's now and ...Anonymous said:<BR/><BR/>"I am good at spotting N's now and making sure I do exactly what it takes to fail their 'tests' with flying colors, so that is less of an issue, but still, it is energy consuming."<BR/><BR/>Could Anonymous or Anna elaborate on this? What does it take to fail their tests with flying colors? I am afraid I still "pass" most of the time and I want to learn how to be different and less of a target.<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>RenewedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-32604291965471139582008-10-20T19:53:00.000-06:002008-10-20T19:53:00.000-06:00I keep re-reading this post and all the comments.....I keep re-reading this post and all the comments....and it is pretty amazing. Thank you for all of what you have shared.<BR/><BR/>One of the things I noticed that I had been doing this past year is to feel the freedom to make a mistake in 'judgement' and opposed to always 'erroring on the side of grace or mercy'. (I realize now how falsely and loosely that has been used in favour of the Ns all my life.) As you said, Anna...one can always re-evaluate and change one's view and dealings with a person. I figured at this point in my life, I KNOW I am one who 'self-corrects' on a regular basis once I know I am wrong about something.<BR/><BR/>Another thing I have noticed during this past year of NC....and learning more about Ns and their behaviours.....and MY own behaviours in relationships, is that as I (underline that!) have all but ceased to compound my issues. I didn't realize how 'crowded' I was inside with all the confusion that having no boundaries allowed. It seems that life gets simpler....with far fewer mood swings and ensuing depressions. Even with some 'normal' nasty life problems, it just seems easier. The 'recovery' time and decision making is based on principals and practicalities as opposed to...well? Gawd knows what I based my life on! Whatever it was, was NO BUENO!<BR/><BR/>So...thank you all....and especially you, Anna...for this life-giving source of experience, wisdom, and blessing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-76640557882678324252008-10-20T16:41:00.000-06:002008-10-20T16:41:00.000-06:00Anna,I'm not laughing. That was some serious, beyo...Anna,<BR/><BR/>I'm not laughing. That was some serious, beyond insightful, strengthening knowledge you shared.<BR/><BR/>As I said before on another thread that when I introduced myself to your blog, I felt instantly vidicated. Right on the spot. I said.."YES! This super smart woman has so much to offer from her extensive experience with PDIs and her dedicated faith in Christ, the Lord" <BR/><BR/>Thanks oodles again and again for continuing this sensational website. <BR/><BR/>Your fan, Kimberley....<BR/>Peace, love and joy for all...:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-18999091355817894422008-10-20T12:19:00.000-06:002008-10-20T12:19:00.000-06:00Thank you for this blog! I have been reading abou...Thank you for this blog! I have been reading about narcissism for several months. I was closely involved with a volunteer group for several years, but just recently quit due to the chaos, confusion, and division in the group, caused mainly by the group leader and most forceful personality. I got involved because there was a need and I had the most time and background to handle the business end of the group's activities, but I was also outspoken when I didn't agree with the direction things were taking. The stress became too much and I had to leave. We consider ourselves Christians, so it is a difficult thing to understand. The 'devil' is blamed for hurting our 'unity'. It is up to me to try and get along, even though some of her activities border on law-breaking. The rest are mostly silent as far as I can tell.<BR/><BR/>I'm angry, and now I'm beginning to understand why. Just because we are Christian doesn't mean we have to allow just anyone into our lives, no matter how 'needy' they appear to be. Thanks again for your blog!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-63489938248642836172008-10-20T10:05:00.000-06:002008-10-20T10:05:00.000-06:00My experience of surviving (barely) life with an N...My experience of surviving (barely) life with an N has left me with my Nar-dar on high alert. Were there always so many nasty people in the world?<BR/><BR/>You have offered excellent protective strategies, Anna.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-18881994480223064602008-10-20T08:02:00.000-06:002008-10-20T08:02:00.000-06:00I can relate to that!But I have a situation that I...I can relate to that!<BR/><BR/>But I have a situation that I would like all of your wise council on:<BR/><BR/>I recently went NC. NM told my in laws I was crazy (thought I might have joined a cult?). Anyways, I don't THINK pshyco parents have my new address ( just moved but not b/c of this ) but its possible and they know where I work. They are coming to the town I live in for something else but I am concerned that they will try to come "save me" (comical). How should I prepare for this and have any of you had to go the restaining order route? If so how did you get one? I just want to be prepared for what MIGHT happen.<BR/><BR/>Any input or advice is very much appreciated!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-1482492636095512432008-10-19T15:35:00.000-06:002008-10-19T15:35:00.000-06:00PS.Here's a quote from a web article on toxic sham...PS.<BR/><BR/>Here's a quote from a web article on toxic shame which I thought related to this..<BR/><BR/>"Scott Peck describes both neuroses and character disorders as disorders of responsibility, Peck writes;<BR/><BR/>"The neurotic assumes too much responsibility; the person with a character disorder not enough. When neurotics are in conflict with the world, they automatically assume that they are at fault. When those with character disorders are in conflict with the world, they automatically assume the world is at fault."<BR/><BR/>From his book--"The Road Less Traveled"<BR/><BR/>quote taken from www.soulselfhelp.on.ca/tshame.html<BR/><BR/>Evidently neuroses are quite common in victims of Narcissists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-38418292147769926682008-10-19T15:23:00.000-06:002008-10-19T15:23:00.000-06:00Thanks again Anna, your comment has clarified thin...Thanks again Anna, your comment has clarified things a great deal.<BR/><BR/>I am reading at the moment about shame and how it can affect your personality and attitudes to life. It explains alot of my struggle to commit to backing my own judgement... why bother when my opinion isn't worth much etc...<BR/><BR/>Also just saw the movie of Jane Austen's 'Persuasion' - a very interesting story about a young woman in a family of narcissists who finally learns to defend her own beliefs and her heart. She gets her reward in the end though!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-19401030849084835652008-10-19T11:29:00.000-06:002008-10-19T11:29:00.000-06:00A 'leftover' for me has been being extremely self ...<I>A 'leftover' for me has been being extremely self conscious and automatically worrying about small or inconsequential act threatening a relationship or friendship. I am learning more and more that most people don't care about the little things that N's taught me to focus on, and really do tend to judge others according to more intrinsic factors like overall character and compatibility and shared interests.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you for your comment. It was excellent. I will focus on what you said above for moment because you succinctly stated a truth that is important for others to hear. <BR/><BR/>You are <I>exactly</I> right about this. People who aren't character-disordered are focused on substance over form. It is the character-disordered who put weight on the superficial and ignore the substantive things like integrity and overall decency. Good people will not toss your friendship because you forget to bring the chips and dip. They won't shun you because you aren't dressed "right". They won't attack you for not figuring out the right thing to do or say at a particular moment. It is important that we all be willing to realize that someone is not truly a friend if they freak out over something trivial and/or superficial. We need to be willing to admit that behavior is always a 'red flag'. Even when it happens in someone we thought was a friend. <BR/><BR/>People who aren't character-disordered are extremely easy to get along with! Amazingly easy. Once you get comfortable being with people who won't rip your head off for having the wrong look on your face at any particular moment then there is no going back. There is so much joy and happiness in being around people who genuinely like you just as you are and don't feel like they have to change you. <BR/><BR/><I>overall character and compatibility and shared interests</I><BR/><BR/>Great summation of the basis that decent people use to determine who their friends are. Without those qualities what IS the point of keeping them around? None that I can see. I don't care about gender, socio-economic status, style, weight, height, hair color, beauty or lack thereof, etc. What I care about are the qualities you listed. What kind of character do you have? Do we share common values and interests? These are the important questions. I feel no sense of internal condemnation for excluding people whom I don't believe are a fit with me. They can be exactly who they are. I have no interest in changing them. They can be who they are somewhere else other than in my life. There is <I>nothing</I> wrong with that.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-74069783137777815022008-10-19T10:57:00.000-06:002008-10-19T10:57:00.000-06:00Thanks for this post about dealing with the afterm...Thanks for this post about dealing with the aftermath and collateral damage of N training. The questioner you answered in your post is very easy to relate to. There is really a big 'in between state' for me too. Despite grasping the big picture, and taking many positive actions, it still remains for me to seemingly continuously work to wipe out all sorts of leftover habits and reflexes the N trained into me. It is one thing to get good at identifying N behavior, but I often feel like I have to still learn so much about what really constitutes healthy behavior and expectations in myself and how I assess others. The good thing is that in retrospect I find my intuition is usually very correct, which is great as long as I continuously learn to really ditch the N training that gets in the way and steers me wrong [like suddenly feeling guilty about not liking someone etc].<BR/><BR/>While I am far from the flashing neon "N bait" I used to be, I still have enough throwback habits that I suspect N's can see me like a swing state - someone they may be able to win over but not so sure. So I feel like I still get 'tested' by N's, while they may intuitively just steer clear of others. I am good at spotting N's now and making sure I do exactly what it takes to fail their 'tests' with flying colors, so that is less of an issue, but still, it is energy consuming.<BR/><BR/>A 'leftover' for me has been being extremely self conscious and automatically worrying about small or inconsequential act threatening a relationship or friendship. I am learning more and more that most people don't care about the little things that N's taught me to focus on, and really do tend to judge others according to more intrinsic factors like overall character and compatibility and shared interests. One of my first post-N dates involved me totally sweating over what to order on a menu - I could NOT focus on what I was actually hungry for, only on how it could be 'interpreted' to possibly define me as defective or flawed! To think that was normal life with an N... ughhhh!!!<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for the great points about taking a firm but moderate path and committing to belief in one's intuition - yet remaining flexible if need be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-8714813675935012692008-10-19T09:54:00.000-06:002008-10-19T09:54:00.000-06:00Jordie,It is okay to make mistakes in judgment abo...Jordie,<BR/><BR/>It is okay to make mistakes in judgment about people. It happens. We have incomplete information most of the time. You can always decide to rescind your own decision about not having someone around if you later get enough information to believe that person is not a "bad person". (This is even more do-able if you didn't end things with a confrontation but with quiet withdrawal.) That is different than feeling obligated to give someone a second chance <I>before</I> you have any proof to believe that person is not bad but was simply having a bad day. I just wanted to be clear that no one is entitled for a second chance just because they live and breath. People need to prove they can be trusted. You are not obligated to operate off the assumption that all people are trustworthy until proven otherwise. It should be the other way around. <BR/><BR/>What is the worst that can happen if you mistakenly distance yourself from someone who was having a "bad day" and isn't themselves a malignant personality? Life goes on. People adjust. Most people, especially the decent sort, are going to cope just fine with whatever you decision you've made. If they can't be in your life what actual harm has been done?<BR/><BR/>It is good to be able to question your own judgment, but at some point you have to be willing to commit to your own judgment. I know that for myself having been raised by a MN I was constantly questioning myself. This was cultivated by the narcissists in my life. My mind would cast about for the fault by looking at <I>me</I> and only me. This allowed the real trouble makers to get away with just about anything they wanted to. I still am willing to question my own judgment <I>when more solid information comes in to prove the necessity for me to reassess</I>. Until then I am now willing to commit to what I believe in. I am much more secure in my own ability to discern things and am less prone to question my own judgment in such a way that the constant questioning of myself makes me vacillating and weak and therefore ripe for the picking by some narcissist. There is definitely a balance somewhere in there that has to be struck. I think, though, that you (like myself when I was younger) tend to err on the side of questioning yourself rather than being able to be willing to commit to your own discernment. I guess one has to learn to be okay with the idea of perhaps being wrong. If you know you are willing to change your mind when facts prove to you that you've made a misjudgment then you can more easily let yourself judge on the information you have today.<BR/><BR/>As far as I'm concerned if someone is having a bad day and takes it out on me I would not feel like I was misjudging because I don't want them around me. When they get more familiar and comfortable around me it is even <I>more</I> likely they'll take their bad days out on me...not less likely. People tend to behave better when they don't know you well rather than the other way around. So if someone decides to take a shit on me I am more than willing to commit to the judgment that I don't want them in my life. That judgment is actually based more on me than on them. It is based on what I know about myself, what I'm willing to put up with in others, what I think I can rightfully expect from others in terms of their behavior. Based on what I know about me, as well as my personal commitments to family and the need to keep my personal space free from people who lack self control and decency I am willing to judge the situation. Know yourself and being willing to commit to your judgment about your own life and needs. Then it won't be so much about you judging them as you making decisions about your own life. Which you're entitled to do.<BR/><BR/>Don't know if this clarifies or mucks it up...I'll throw it out there just in case it speaks to your comment.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-28840206668956503892008-10-19T00:04:00.000-06:002008-10-19T00:04:00.000-06:00Anna,Thankyou for taking the time to answer the qu...Anna,<BR/><BR/>Thankyou for taking the time to answer the question so thoroughly.<BR/><BR/>Just to comment on your question about giving people a second chance... I guess I just need to know I can be wrong too. After having been around people for so long who never question their own fallibility, I don't want to fall into the same trap, so sometimes I question my own judgement...and think they may be just having a bad day, instead of being bad people.<BR/><BR/>For some reason my computer didn't pick up this post when you posted it, and I kept going to the second to last one...so my reply has been delayed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-59489696829361329992008-10-18T20:53:00.000-06:002008-10-18T20:53:00.000-06:00Thank you for posting this, Anna. Such great 'com...Thank you for posting this, Anna. Such great 'common sense' approach! I can hardly believe how confused I was all these years.....and it still just baffles the hell out of me how 'simple' it is.<BR/><BR/>I DO find I am rather 'boring' these days. I don't put out much, don't offer much, and don't take much either. (Unless I know them very well...) I didn't realize how 'vulnerable' I left myself by being 'open'. (Did I really think that was an attribute? Geez.)<BR/><BR/>Anyway....thank you so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-32132666557312640772008-10-18T20:10:00.000-06:002008-10-18T20:10:00.000-06:00Love the blog, Anna.In my personal opinion, the be...Love the blog, Anna.<BR/><BR/>In my personal opinion, the best test is how someone reacts to correction. If you need/want to work with this person, call them on the B.S. A decent person may be defensive initially but will at least listen to you. An unhealthy one will accuse you of being "hateful," "unforgiving," or some such.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com