tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post5755478138881435999..comments2024-03-16T14:19:24.563-06:00Comments on Narcissists Suck: Breathing Example Illustrating Last PostAnna Valerioushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-83371297225313407312015-03-14T10:45:54.547-06:002015-03-14T10:45:54.547-06:00I know what that comment was aiming at because I w...I know what that comment was aiming at because I was subject to this argument very often by my N mother ("It is Satan who wants to separate people from one another.") A nice way out for those who don't want to be responsible for their own actions: "XY is not turning away from me because I ill-treated him or her, but because Satan is getting between us." Hah. My N mother once even accused an old friend of hers, who had absolutely nothing to do with the whole thing, of being Satan trying to separate her from me.<br /><br />If you want to stick to the narcissist in your life, I can only say: you're welcome. You would never ever leave him, how noble. Funny how by acting like this you will wind up totally isolated, without anyone to turn to BUT the narcissist. This is the fact that amply proves that it is the N who gets between people, not ill-advised others trying to separate the narcissist from his victim.<br /><br />Without wanting to accuse your commentator: who knows what are the true reasons for sticking with such an evil person. It must not necessarily be stupidity - she might be financially dependent on her and thus finding excuses everywhere for not dumping her.<br />I knew a woman once who often complained bitterly about her N sister's behaviour towards her: this woman is divorced and has two daughters she must raise on her own. A few days after her N sister had made her a handsome money present for Christmas she ended all contact to - guess who? To me.<br />Using words just as offending as her sister's, she accused me of being paranoid and brainwashed by pop psychology. She would not end contact with her sister but fill up her energies with regular meditation and exercise, and she ended hoping that I would some day see the error in my ways. How gracious, after she had turned to me for help because she had no longer been capable to endure her sister's mean behaviour. The ones I most sincerely am sorry for are her daughters, unprotected from her aunt and with a mother on her best way of becoming just the same.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02827357802388386341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-49827487396143335382011-08-16T01:57:19.438-06:002011-08-16T01:57:19.438-06:00[Continued]
Then of course, a mutual friend tried...[Continued]<br /><br />Then of course, a mutual friend tried to get me to reconsider. He didn't know any details, he said. But he tried to encourage me to forgive their weaknesses, reconcile...said that Satan causes divisions...he didn't want to see long-time friendships end....I could understand his concern, especially if my former best friend was acting upset and sad when telling him about the breach, but he didn't know what happened and my husband and I couldn't possibly go back to that mess without substantial changes. Both the wife and the husband were now sunk very low in our esteem, and couldn't go back up again without even so much as an apology from either.<br /><br />I've gone through an enormous amount of pain, heartache and self-reflection over the past year, because in cutting her out I also had to lose what I thought was my best friend. But I do not regret losing her from my life. I'm able to begin healing from her crap and abuse, without her constantly throwing more at me. I don't want anything to do with her. I don't want to see her name anywhere, don't want to deal with her, would rather she went far, far away from here. I don't want her back in my life. But because she's a Christian, or at least claims to be, many would think I am obligated to court her back into my life? No, no, I feel a tremendous relief to have her here no longer. Why would I want her back?<br /><br />As for the husband--well, I've been realizing he may have his own narcissistic issues. Maybe not malignant, necessarily, but destructive. And she's definitely MN. He, too, did and said things that on reflection make me wonder why I thought he was so cool. He told me things that were very unChristian. He told me about his own cruelties and abuses. He told me he wanted to assault somebody who had offended him, and I tried to talk him out of it....Thank God his wife changed his mind! But I know how he is revered by many as practically a saint, how I had once done the same. Refriending him at this point would not be at all wise.Nyssa The Hobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-52744382328027789182011-08-16T01:56:44.951-06:002011-08-16T01:56:44.951-06:00This reminds me of a year ago when my husband and ...This reminds me of a year ago when my husband and I cut a couple out of our lives, a couple who claimed to be Christian....I often witnessed the wife's cruelty to others, including her husband, who was my best friend for a while. And, of course, soon the cruelty was extended to me because she found out what I thought about how she treated others....Hubby and I let her stay in our lives for a while for the sake of the husband, who we liked. But she kept causing so much drama in our lives, accusing me of so many things, and her husband kept sticking up for what she did and blaming me for the problems....<br /><br />The last straw was when she misunderstood an e-mail I wrote and decided to humiliate, belittle and demean me, and cuss me out, and her husband actually used his larger size to intimidate and threaten my husband. Why? Because my husband told him that her actions were making things worse. My husband was furious with both of them and refused to let me debase myself to her for the sake of peace and Christian forgiveness.<br /><br />She never apologized for anything she said or did, not then, not over the past two and a half years we had known her. Instead, she acted as if all apologies were due from me to her. I wasn't even allowed to make apologies to her husband for causing drama through my e-mail--all had to be made directly to her.<br /><br />When we decided to end the friendship that evening, she saw it as my husband "storming in," apparently thought we were being childish and dramatic, and petulantly complained that "WE weren't the ones to end the friendship and unfriend on Facebook!"<br /><br />It was sickening, disgusting. When I attempted to make peace a month after all the events, I just got more of the same crap from her. Just more ripping on me and my motives, believing that I should agree with her, that everyone would agree with her, and expecting me to bow down to her while I was owed absolutely nothing from her. When I threw up my hands and decided this wasn't going to work, she accused me of throwing their "olive branch" back in their faces, said I could call them when I decided to "GROW UP and stop feeling hurt over the consequences of YOUR BEHAVIOR." More disgusting, vile filth.<br /><br />[To be continued]Nyssa The Hobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-22380679005596159192008-07-30T16:06:00.000-06:002008-07-30T16:06:00.000-06:00What in the world??? What this person is saying is...What in the world??? What this person is saying is that God wants you to remain with an abuser and continue to let them be your punching bag. This is absurd. God is love and love means doing what is best for people. It is actually best for everyone involved, INCLUDING the abuser to leave them. To allow an abuser to continue in sin abusing others is a sin against them because it is actually aiding them in continuing in sin and continuing in abusing you. Would you also allow an abusing spouse to continue to abuse your own child? Then why would you suggest letting an abuser stick around abusing you? This is complete craziness. Where do these insane ideas come from? Certainly not from the Scriptures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-21071650341512120632008-05-14T13:20:00.000-06:002008-05-14T13:20:00.000-06:00That makes a lot of sense. I believe my father is ...That makes a lot of sense. I believe my father is very delusional in this sense. "She is your mother. Don't say things like that about her. You must respect your mother." She really has him under control. <BR/><BR/>For petes sake dad. Wake up. She is my mother but that doesn't give her the right to do whatever she wants with me. Go against what she wants. Don't do everything she says. <BR/><BR/>This is the number one reason I do not talk to anyone else in real life about my mother I just pretend everything is fine for them and thats it. Here I can attempt to describe it. <BR/><BR/>My mother uses religion to make me feel guilty. Not taking it anymore and a year ago I decided that there were some beliefs that were fundamentally wrong about my religion and so I will leave when I turn 18. The reason for pretending to still believe is that she will do anything and everything to force me back and guilt me into it. My dad is religious also and will not think very well of me and be using the same tactics to get me back into that fold of sheep.<BR/><BR/>No offense to anyone who is religious. Your beliefs are yours and if you are happy that is good. <BR/><BR/>My favorite scripture is mathew 18 verse 6 something about offend your little ones and if you do deserving a millstone tied around your neck and being cast into the see. <BR/><BR/>Many people in religions fail to realize that you must not only respect your parents but that you must respect your children. They are precious they are innocent until you poison their minds. (speaking of bad parents not the good ones) The agony some parents make their children go through is horrible. Some parents are nazis and I know this from experience. <BR/><BR/>Every right you have takes away a right from another. So if you believe you have the right to do whatever you want to do with your children you take away from their right to make their own choices and not be tortured. <BR/><BR/>GarfieldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-62500296485215541102008-04-17T21:58:00.000-06:002008-04-17T21:58:00.000-06:00Just learned today that my N bro. and N Mom had pu...Just learned today that my N bro. and N Mom had put the family business up for sale, given it to a realtor etc. etc. All without consulting me although my late dad left me 12 1/2% of it (died intestate). Not to mention this is illegal, it hurt once again. But my brother did so kindly inform me that he'd see I got my 12.5% share (big of him, considering it is legally mine). Of course, the rest goes to mom and her boy (did I mention his gold digging wife? Bro. is her 2nd husband- 2nd husband who is a pastor. Did I mention she deserted her 10 year old son for my brother? Wouldn't you like to attend their church?<BR/>Like the fool I am, I called my mother and got the usual claptrap- she'd be dead soon, I was going to kill her (she's been dying since I was 14- I'm now 58), she'd never done anything to me in my whole life. Finally, I said the words I guess I'd been wanting to for years: "I just don't want anything else to do with you". I can't believe God wants any of His children to be abused, no matter what age or by whom. And, after years of trying to get one real word of approval from her, those words liberated me more than any I've spoken in a very long time.<BR/>God bless you, Anna.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-80818956264158546682008-04-17T15:14:00.000-06:002008-04-17T15:14:00.000-06:00I asked my husband about this (he is a former mini...I asked my husband about this (he is a former minister) and whether he believed that a MN could be saved. He responded,"Only by a miracle." That is because to repent means to turn around and go the other direction. It means that if you were stealing, you have to stop stealing (and return what was stolen if you can), if you were lying you have to start telling the truth, if you have been falsely accusing others you have to start taking the blame upon yourself, and so on. A MN is not able to do those things without an act of divine intervention. They are never at fault, you see. <BR/><BR/>We pray for my N stepdaughter and stepson to experience that sort of miracle, but we aren't living our lives on hold in the expectation of that. We've moved on without them in our lives. They made the choices that cut them off from our family. Writing off their debt and allowing them back in our lives are two very different things. Unless they prove that they have changed, the door to relationship will remain closed.<BR/><BR/>With my Nmother I cut her off from close contact with my family several years before she died. I had given her ample warning that I would do that if she didn't stop her backstabbing and betrayals. I would occasionally meet with her for lunch or something like that, but I did not spend a lot of time with her. I never admitted her to my confidence or trust. I took care of her because (and this may offend some folks) the scriptures say to honor your parents and I did not see anyway out of that. I gave her the care she needed and was kind to her. I did it out of obedience (and sacrifice) to God, not because she deserved any of it. I did not mourn for her when she died and do not miss her now. <BR/><BR/>With my husband's exN--there isn't even the remotest chance that I would consider allowing her in our lives. Not a chance. She is such a very malignant N, that I believe she is quite dangerous and I know she is capable of ANYTHING. In addition, although she is now claiming to be a Christian it is only because she knows that most Christians are fools. They are gullible and she can manipulate them by playing the game. That is how she maneuvered my husband into marriage with her in the first place, she knew how to play a victim in need of rescue and at the same time to sound very Christian. She has a sister who is a missionary and I believe she has restored relationship with her now, but most likely by blaming all of her heinous behaviors on my husband or her own parents. It makes no difference to us because we consider anyone who will listen to her not only not our friend, but its doubtful they are even a Christian. Certainly, they have no spiritual discernment. <BR/><BR/>Christians should know that they are not hearing the full story when they listen to just one person's side. In addition, they are passing judgment in a situation where they really have no knowledge. Hmmm. That, in my opinion, is another example of arrogance and presumption.<BR/><BR/>That is why the current teaching on forgiveness is so very off the wall. It does not hold the abuser accountable. It continues to abuse the victim by making them responsible for the consequences of the abuser's actions. That is stupid and a misapplication of the scripture. The purveyors of such nonsense would most likely not apply it to themselves, either. The Cult of Nice is for others, not for you to live by.Writer in Washingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12862858479312461659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-21929397664252578472008-04-17T14:17:00.000-06:002008-04-17T14:17:00.000-06:00I, too, was listening to a radio teaching from a p...I, too, was listening to a radio teaching from a pastor I respect --- and to whom I owe much of my spiritual growth. However, he was preaching on forgiveness and, as I've heard him do before -- stressed forgiveness by the one sinned against. He outlined the steps by which we are forgiven in Christ, including REPENTANCE. But when talking about OUR obligation to forgive -- repentance did not seem to be a factor. I ought to e-mail him and point it out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-52730235190120778922008-04-16T11:12:00.000-06:002008-04-16T11:12:00.000-06:00Hi, Anna:I've thought a lot about this post. I ca...Hi, Anna:<BR/><BR/>I've thought a lot about this post. I can sympathize to a degree with the poster because I have often struggled to reconcile my cutting off the MNs in my life and the teachings about forgiveness that are current in the church. <BR/><BR/>I've found that a MN is the sort of person who puts themselves on par with God. God is their "Dad", Jesus is "that Jesus guy" or "my buddy Jesus". When someone reduces deity to the level of a regular human being, RUN!!! This means that in their mind, they have a special status with the Almighty. Their "personal relationship" with God has reached the level of presumption and arrogance.<BR/><BR/>This morning, I heard a TV minister state that a person doesn't need to repent to other people. Just to God who "forgets" your sins, but you don't have any obligation to repent or make restitution to other human beings. (This isn't someone that I normally watch, I just happened to catch the end of his program. Anytime I've seen any portions of his show, he strikes me as a bitter, legalistic, arrogant fellow.) It is that sort of teaching which has allowed MNs to flourish in the church. They don't have to make anything right with the people they have committed character murder against. Their victims "have" to forgive them if they are Christians. This enables a MN to portray themselves as being a Christian, you see. They can put out blogs quoting Mother Theresa ("If you are judging someone you aren't loving them") and feel very smug in their self-righteousness. They even have the nerve to tell their victims that they "have to forgive them, its an imperative for a Christian." While "forgiveness" (which in this sense is actually a writing off of a debt--not the same thing as the payment of a debt)may be an imperative there is absolutely nothing in the bible that says relationship is. NOTHING. In fact, the scripture tells us to "try the spirits to see if they be of God." In other words, don't just automatically buy into someone's claims of spirituality, repentance or whatever and commit yourself to a relationship with them. <BR/><BR/>When my MN mother was dying, and I was her caregiver because my "golden child" brother wouldn't do the job, as she was lying in her bed she looked at me and said, "I've been such a fool." I simply responded, "It's too late now and I don't want to dwell on it." Not because I didn't think she needed to make things right, I was very aware that she simply couldn't and I wasn't about to countenance the crocodile tears of her "repentance". Perhaps that is harsh but I knew that her repenting at that point was too ludicrous to be considered. This woman had taken the estate that it took my father years to build up, and had mortgaged most of it to give the money to the "golden child". She had robbed me and my other brother of our inheritance. When I was given Power of Attorney to act for her, I discovered all that she had done. This is in addition to the character assasination she had done to me. Of course, she was a "christian" and a bible-teacher and "Sister Super-Spiritual". To allow her to balm her conscience with a phony repentance at that point was an outrage that I would not allow. It would not have been because she felt what she'd done to me was wrong but because she wanted to have a clean conscience when she died. It was for her benefit alone. While I've written off her debt to me, it doesn't mean that she went to her grave not owing any debts to me or to others. She died terrified of death because she knew she owed too much to too many people that she had never made right when she had the chance.<BR/><BR/>The person who wrote all this stuff to you is someone who still believes that everyone can be saved. They can't. Although the door of salvation is always open, there are too many who will not choose it because they simply don't believe they NEED it. They cannot see their fault. In fact, the scripture refers to those who have so slaughtered their conscience that it is like it has been "seared with a hot iron". These are the people who are super Christians with you, but are something else with others--depending upon who they are with at the moment. In short, they are "anybody's dog who will hunt with them" as my Dad used to say. In any case, most MNs I know will fluctuate between copious tears of self-flagellation to self-aggrandizement within minutes of each other. Whatever will get them the most attention. They cannot take responsibility for their actions or make a genuine restitution. Perhaps the word denial really covers it best, it is certainly not true repentance. The real meaning of repentance is something they cannot fathom, let alone follow through with. They come to God and to others arrogantly, demanding to be restored to relationship without any regard for the damage they have done or the consequences of it. They miss the part of the story of the Prodigal who recognized that he had no right to a relationship with the Father at all. He did not return with any expectations of restoration to sonship. An MN expects you to be constantly looking for their return and to run to greet them, to give them all you have to give again. In short, you are supposed to be living your life on hold until they decide to come back to you again. They've missed the whole meaning of that parable, and have given it a meaning that was never intended.<BR/><BR/>I think that most people who are praying for a MN really do mean well. They still have hope that the person can and will change. However, keeping in a close relationship with someone who is a MN is a very dangerous thing to do. I really doubt that the person who wrote to you is close to their mother. They probably keep her well outside their personal life. That is what I eventually did with my mother. I still ended up taking care of her on her deathbed though. There are degrees of contact. The main thing is, no one has the right to tell another person how to handle these situations. That is what is really wrong with the person who wrote you. He/She thinks they have the right to tell you how to respond to the MNs in your life, based upon their own decisions. That is called ARROGANCE and SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. Nothing Christian about either of those. He/She thinks that they are more spiritual than you because they have taken the "higher" road. <BR/><BR/>They have set themselves up to be disppointed over and over again, too. That's sad and wasteful. But maybe they just aren't there yet, as you have said.Writer in Washingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12862858479312461659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-32824403384257574662008-04-14T06:04:00.000-06:002008-04-14T06:04:00.000-06:00Thanks, Anna, for this site. I too am a conservat...Thanks, Anna, for this site. I too am a conservative Christian and have struggled for many years (most of my 58 years of life) with a controlling, N mother, and an N brother (the smartest man alive, greatest preacher you'll ever hear, etc). I'd love to tell some of my stories- like how my mother tried to get my husband to have a vasectomy (without my knowledge) so that I couldn't have children, being taken to the doctor constantly as a young child with my poor, tired & doting mother taking such good care of me (then beating my brains out at home because I was sick), etc. etc.<BR/><BR/>And, mindlessly, I allowed her to control the large part of my life. Doing everything I could to try to please her in some way, while my brother, the "golden child" did little but grandstand (when mom is hospitalized, he usually comes by to talk with the doctors {being the smarter one, he is the only one the md's will talk with and that can understand what they're saying} then gives me orders to about how to take care of her and then sashays away, once more the hero). The list goes on and on and on.<BR/><BR/>There is in the Bible a point of no return- a place where God just says enough. After more tries at reconciliation that I can name, I've finally come to the point where I know history will repeat itself and I'll just go through the same pain again. Which causes me anger and sin. At this point, distancing myself isn't a desire to hurt her (a Narcissist's pain comes not from the loss of the person but the loss of a sourceand maybe embarassment as being seen as less than perfect), but a desire not to hurt myself more than necessary. We all desire love from our parents- they are next to God in our minds. When it isn't given, it is excruciatingly painful. Does society not remove an abused child from the home? Or should the child remain there hoping for change in the abuser?<BR/><BR/>I do believe that N's can be changed by the grace of God. On the other hand, repentence is also a part of salvation. And those who cannot see their sins, do not repent of them. I think the greatest thing I can ever do for my mother and brother is to pray for them and that I do regularly.sharonb42https://www.blogger.com/profile/12377176733144725530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-24356839374009271322008-04-13T23:18:00.000-06:002008-04-13T23:18:00.000-06:00Biblically, Satan was the ultimate Narcissist. God...Biblically, Satan was the ultimate Narcissist. God threw him out of HIS house, as I recall. Satan had certain qualities that God just found repulsive. What might those qualities be? The exact qualities Anna has been writing about in her blogs. So to tell someone to tolerate a Narcissist is like telling God to tolerate Satan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-33403627158244403182008-04-13T12:31:00.000-06:002008-04-13T12:31:00.000-06:00As to Angela's quandary about custody of her daugh...As to Angela's quandary about custody of her daughter.....I don't say it's right, but many times I have speculated as to how things might have been different if I had given the SOB custody of all three of my girls. First, I'm pretty sure he would have reversed course real fast. Even if he hadn't, though, and they had lived with him instead of me --would my relationships with my daughters be better now -- or at least healthier? I don't know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-73433226071038729832008-04-11T22:01:00.000-06:002008-04-11T22:01:00.000-06:00Anonymous - Apr 11, 2008 8:29:00 PM"I am trying to...Anonymous - Apr 11, 2008 8:29:00 PM<BR/><BR/>"I am trying to analyse the conflict within me as to why I still can't deal with her (NM) phone calls."<BR/><BR/>Man, I understand. I still cringe when she calls. Why? Because I never know whether I am going to get the pleading, pitiful mom or the ticked of, in-a-snit mom, or the pushy mom, or the . . .<BR/><BR/> I actually wrote down a conversation I had with her a couple of months ago right after we hung up. I then went over it with my therapist and my aunt. They were disgusted. She actually tried to manipulate me by praying for me. The prayer itself was a veiled warning that I was in dangerous territory. That kind of prayer is witchcraft.<BR/><BR/>By the way, my therapist is repulsed by the blame-the-victim mentality, so there are some good ones out there. She believes me that my mom is a narcissist. <BR/><BR/>This is kind of interesting - tells me she understands what narcissists are all about - after looking at some photos of my mom (just a bunch from over the years) she said the she hoped we wouldn't have to bring her into the office because she really didn't even want to meet her. Smart woman. ;-)Jeannette Alteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06574051760314762024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-32353307117050917772008-04-11T20:29:00.000-06:002008-04-11T20:29:00.000-06:00That comment from the "turn the other cheek writer...That comment from the "turn the other cheek writer" who thinks it wrong to avoid the NM is still obsessing me. I am trying to analyse the conflict within me as to why I still can't deal with her (NM) phone calls. Can anyone beat this fish story? My NM was so controlling she called me at the hotel we (hubby and I) were staying at on the morning of our honeymoon, at 8:00 am. Can anyone beat this? I have heard that manipulation done to a person from another is defined as withcraft. Create an effect by manipulation for their gratification. Why would a christian want to yoke themselves with that?<BR/><BR/>Self-help books don't work, have never been psycho-analyzed, but having surfed through some sites, I sense counselors on this subject are so eager to defend the "pitiful abuser" and teach "techniques" to appease the abuser. The church today uses much of the same psycho-babble. Unfortunately, "we" need to know-that-we-know staying away as much as possible is the only solution. And, by the way, I have actually told a few people that my mother was in my opinion mentally, emotionally sick when they would praise her as being a "delightful" woman. They have that "deer in the headlights" kind of look, but I'm telling the truth, and the truth will set us free. PS Got a call today from my mom and it's an on-going saga; wish those who preach to continue a relationship would walk the walk and take on a N and give us a "furlough". Haven't cut the umbilical cord entirely but am spacing out my interaction less and less. My epiphany happened last week when I realized so many are taking their lives back. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-88660958179823168082008-04-11T14:10:00.000-06:002008-04-11T14:10:00.000-06:00I have to run out the door, Angela, but I wanted t...I have to run out the door, Angela, but I wanted to point you to Stanton Samenow's book, "Before It's Too Late". It is featured in my Amazon Favorites in the sidebar. Very helpful information for parents of young children starting to demonstrate anti-social behavior which includes n-tendencies. You can probably find a used copy.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-36586552637505413532008-04-11T13:33:00.000-06:002008-04-11T13:33:00.000-06:00I never understood narcissism until I started read...I never understood narcissism until I started reading Anna's blog and it opened my eyes to my life, which I had been giving away to my N-Dad and N-husband. I left my husband of 10 years last August and didn't start reading this blog until after that. I wish I had read it a loooooog time ago. It would have saved me years of heartache, but better late than never.<BR/><BR/>For so many years I thought I was going crazy. Now that I am away from my N-husband and know about narcissism, I can see his manipulations so much more clearly. I went to "our" house where he is still living to get some more of my dishes and he told me I had already gone through the dishes and took what I wanted. I told him that I hadn't. He insisted that I did. He was trying to intimidate me. Use to be I would have believed him and thought I was crazy for not remembering. I told him that I had not gone throught that stuff, that I was going to go through it and that I KNOW WHAT I DID AND DID NOT DO. I told him that now I understand why I used to feel so crazy, was because he would tell me things that were different than what I remembered them and I would think he must remember it corriectly and not me. Now I realize he was manipulating me to think of a situation as he wanted it to be. We only owned 2 glass cooking dishes, but he insisted that I had already taken one. I said, "no I didn't", we only have 2, so I have not taken one and then he insisted I did. I have gone to therapy and the therapist would say, assert yourself and repeat your point. That never works with my N-husband, he will repeat his point till he's blue in the face. I finally figured out that I have to listen to myself, make my point one time and then be quiet. He can't stand for me to be quiet b\c then he has nothing to argue with.<BR/><BR/>One of the people that commented on your blog one time said, "I wonder how much money had been spent for therapy for those involved with Narcissist's? And how come the therapist's don't figure it out?" That is sooooo true. I have gone to years of therapy trying to fix myself and deal with the N's in my life, when I should have walked away from these people.<BR/><BR/>My 9 year old daughter is also having these N tendancies. She is turning out just like her Dad. She is very manipulative! And since I left my husband she is with him one week and me one week. It is very hard to have her at my house. She is exhausting to deal with. Everything has to be about her, she thinks. I was glad Dandelion brought that up about her daughter. And of course my N-husband is fighting for full custody and is painting a very bad picture of me to his lawyer and my lawyer even doubted me, until I spent some time with her and told her about me and my character. She felt much better. He's acting like I'm some crazy alcohol woman who does nothing but sit around and get's drunk and he is father of the year. Yeah, right!<BR/><BR/>Oh and he is a devoted Christian who attends church Wednesday night, Sunday morning and Sunday night and plays the guitar in the service and studied the Bible in a class called Bible Study Fellowship for 5 years. He studied the Bible nightly and would yell at my older daughter for not studying the Bible every night. When I asked him if he wanted to study the Bible when he was a teenager, he conveniently couldn't remember. He loves knowing the Bible so good that the people at the church look up to him to know the stories. Amazing! He certainly doesn't apply it to his life.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what to do about my 9 yr old daughter with the N-tendencies. Any suggestions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-85233276089848486272008-04-11T12:19:00.000-06:002008-04-11T12:19:00.000-06:00I think it is excellent!I think it is <I>excellent!</I>Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-56849430420958982912008-04-11T12:14:00.000-06:002008-04-11T12:14:00.000-06:00Anna, Dandelion, and Katharine,Thank you for all o...Anna, Dandelion, and Katharine,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for all of your suggestions and comments. I have my feisty moments, but they are usually AFTER an incident ; ). During one I am pretty much dumb as a lamb going to the slaughter. Sigh.<BR/><BR/>I have been thinking this over and have been considering this response: "We made the NC decision after trying many things, with much prayer, and with great sorrow. We pray for them daily. The only way left to honor them is to not gossip about the situation."<BR/><BR/>What do you think?<BR/><BR/>RenewedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-65864662553022413752008-04-10T22:10:00.000-06:002008-04-10T22:10:00.000-06:00h~Well said. I'm not to the 'sighing' stage yet, t...h~<BR/>Well said. I'm not to the 'sighing' stage yet, though. It makes me angry. I spent so much time LIVING in that attitude with my Bible-scholar Nmom and the church we went to, I have no patience for it now. Right now, I might be likely to say something like, "You think they are misunderstood and can be cured? Wonderful. YOU go live with them for a few weeks and then we'll talk." That might not be the most productive answer, but dang, it would feel good! ;-)Jeannette Alteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06574051760314762024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-70468932019573299782008-04-10T14:58:00.000-06:002008-04-10T14:58:00.000-06:00"""If we are truly going to deal with Narcissism i..."""If we are truly going to deal with Narcissism in a Biblical manner then we need to use all of God's word not just parts of it to fulfill our own needs and desires."""<BR/><BR/>The poster only took parts of scripture to fulfill their owns wants and desires.<BR/><BR/>sighhhhh. I wonder at times if people that think like this truly don't see the counterdictions in their own statements.Hannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165967476661656865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-28494227639304245592008-04-10T13:41:00.000-06:002008-04-10T13:41:00.000-06:00Oooo, well said, dandelion.I read somewhere, quite...Oooo, well said, dandelion.<BR/><BR/>I read somewhere, quite some time ago so I've forgotten the source, that a good response can be a shrug of the shoulders, a sad shake of the head, and then the comment, "the effects of mental illness can be such a tragic thing." Then walk away. Referring of course to the 'mental illness' of the N...not the person you're talking to.<BR/><BR/>For example, say that someone has come to you to criticize you for not 'playing nice' with your N mother. This type of response suggests to the third party that there is a lot they don't know about the person they are defending. The measured matter-of-factness of the statement also supports that the crazy person in the equation t'aint you. It can shut the busybody up long enough to escape the conversation gracefully. Seemed like a good strategy when I read it. Haven't had to implement it yet.<BR/><BR/>Your suggestions sounds very much like this approach. I would love to hear from someone who has tried it to report on the results.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-22335825680500271432008-04-10T13:25:00.000-06:002008-04-10T13:25:00.000-06:00How about making some remark that casts a little d...How about making some remark that casts a little doubt, like "things aren't always what they seem" or "you don't know the whole story." No need to explain further to those who are not likely to get it, since this is what often makes one seem vengeful (the desperation to convince).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-89621868502221170002008-04-10T11:11:00.000-06:002008-04-10T11:11:00.000-06:00Renewed,Kathy Krajco, in the comments section of h...Renewed,<BR/><BR/>Kathy Krajco, in the comments section of her most recent post, says something that may apply to the question you raised. <BR/><BR/><I>True, exposing the N would warn other people about him, but your first duty is to yourself, and exposing a narcissist is a thankless job that often brings you nothing but grief as the N comes out smelling like a rose.<BR/><BR/>If others don't see that you have suffered material damage from the N, they may well wonder about YOUR motive.<BR/><BR/>Ns are practiced liars, glib, slick-talkers, expert at manipulating people. It only makes sense to ask yourself whether exposing the N is worth the trouble.</I><BR/><BR/>To respond to someone who is insisting you take the N's crap requires that you expose the N. It is this exposure which can then be turned on you to label you as "vengeful, unforgiving" etc. Kathy sums it up perfectly when she says, <BR/><BR/><B>If others don't see that you have suffered material damage from the N, they may well wonder about YOUR motive.</B><BR/><BR/>This is probably very important to factor in when deciding how to respond to someone who is telling you to turn the other cheek. If the evidence of <I>material</I> damage is not compelling and obvious then you are likely set up to have your own motives called into question. Sometimes our silence is the only response we can use until the day comes when the proof is established beyond reasonable doubt.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if I'm even really touching on your question. I hope I am, of course.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-14714473353322833902008-04-10T10:57:00.000-06:002008-04-10T10:57:00.000-06:00I know they're making me bend over for it, but how...<I>I know they're making me bend over for it, but how do I respond to that without sounding sinful/vengeful/unforgiving/etc.?</I><BR/><BR/>I'm very interested in how others would handle the situation you've posited, Renewed. I sure don't feel like I have a real good answer to this one. I'll take a stab at it, though.<BR/><BR/>I think many things might determine how one would respond in such a circumstance. Not the least of which is ones own personality and relating style. If someone is able to remain cool under pressure then they would likely react differently than another person who is more easily shaken. So I'm guessing that the 'right' way to handle it would differ depending on the personalities involved. <BR/><BR/>As for me? It would likely depend on the mood I'm in. Feisty day? "When I need your opinion I'll ask for it." Introvert day? ***vast silence on my end*** Let busybody say their piece, I nod vaguely then walk away with grim determination to avoid that person like the pox they are. Anybody who insists you or I 'bend over for it' does <I>not</I> have our interests at heart. Therefore, they are no friend of ours. Therefore, so-long, sodomite. Silently crossing them off the list of people to interact with seems as good a way to cope as other ways may be. Pick which ever response allows you to still respect yourself in the morning, I suppose. It takes a lot of practice and effort to learn to let other people's negative opinions of you roll off your back. I really think it is one of life's hardest lessons to learn. That of not taking to heart unearned negative opinions of others.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-14510582918861366572008-04-10T10:29:00.000-06:002008-04-10T10:29:00.000-06:00Renewed,To your request yesterday that I go ahead ...Renewed,<BR/><BR/>To your request yesterday that I go ahead and parse out the rest of the comment...I'm considering it. Can't promise anything, but I'm at least considering it. :o)Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.com