tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post3315717685673804310..comments2024-03-16T14:19:24.563-06:00Comments on Narcissists Suck: The Narcissist and Self-LoathingAnna Valerioushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-83438553863903448632018-07-10T15:16:31.176-06:002018-07-10T15:16:31.176-06:00Hi, just a request that the second comment be post...Hi, just a request that the second comment be posted. In my haste I made some errors in my first appraisal . After calming down a little and thinking more about what others had written , I feel my second comment expresses a more concise and reasonable reaction. Thank you your consideration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-87461261297428342142011-03-24T08:28:33.903-06:002011-03-24T08:28:33.903-06:00The only real emotion I ever saw from my ex-N was ...The only real emotion I ever saw from my ex-N was rage... She had that one down pat.....SoftailDoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05054695332465772681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-55035153134705354902009-05-20T12:17:31.322-06:002009-05-20T12:17:31.322-06:00If it helps anyone. I GOT ONE! I bagged one (N) ...If it helps anyone. I GOT ONE! I bagged one (N) and dumped him. Thank you for your comments and thanks for this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-37143739008235162472008-12-30T01:03:00.000-07:002008-12-30T01:03:00.000-07:00I'm parroting something read elsewhere... but tha...I'm parroting something read elsewhere... but that's surely why narcissists are incurable: having cultivated such a loathful personna who would choose culpability and the resultant, seemingly unending miasma of pain that follows?Larahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03724316059969411505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-35426179465415079952008-10-11T10:26:00.000-06:002008-10-11T10:26:00.000-06:00Hey anonymous, Oct 1, 2008 3:35:00 PM, your nfrien...Hey anonymous, Oct 1, 2008 3:35:00 PM, your nfriend sounds exactly like the nf that I had. The first time we went out, it was to the beach she suddenly let me have it. Started criticizing the way I walked, the way I interacted with other people, insulted my family. Then at the end of the day she apologized profusely and said that she had not right to treat me like that. Of course, of course I went back for more. (I'm still angry with myself for that 2.5 years later) I should have walked. Be proud that you called your nf on it right away. She too was very secretive about her life. She was unforgiving about other people's faults and failings but really didn't have anything to show for her life. <BR/>She was always 'helping' people by telling them the 'truth' you know criticism disguised as advice. Sometimes very hurtful things. And she'd say she was just being honest. Its crap. My mother would say the same things:<BR/>I'm just being honest<BR/>I'm being cruel to be kind<BR/>I'm just trying to help you<BR/>I'm saying this because no one else will<BR/>The wounds of a friend are faithful<BR/>BARF!<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon Oct 1, 2008 5:48:00 AM your friend sounds a lot like my mother when I was growing up. Sis was the GC and if she hurt my sister boy would she ever grovel, "i'm sorry, baby, I'm sorry, I'm sorry". But if say she accused me of doing something wrong and punished me for it and found out she was mistaken she wouldn't aplogize, in fact sometimes I'd see a little smirk on her face. My sister's whims were indulged at all times. Its the little things, seemingly insignificant, invisible to outsiders that wear you down a little at a time. Like I had to eat whatever was served whether I liked it or not. If my sister didn't like something say liver and my mother made liver for dinner she'd be sure to make some chicken or an alternative for my sister, just enough for my sister though. Its those things that tell you how low or high you are on the family totem pole. You know how badly your being treated by how well they are treating everyone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-25651772488409052562008-10-09T12:15:00.000-06:002008-10-09T12:15:00.000-06:00"The more emotion displayed the bigger fake you're..."The more emotion displayed the bigger fake you're witnessing.<BR/><BR/>The more dispassionate the expression, the closer you are to seeing a narcissist acknowledging a truth about themselves.<BR/><BR/>But, again, this self-loathing is greatly tempered for the narcissist. He or she has powerful defenses against truly feeling the depth this emotion would call forth in someone who isn't a malignant narcissist."<BR/><BR/>Here's a link to one psychiatrist's theory about whether narcissists actually "feel" anything at all:<BR/><BR/>http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2008/10/psychopathy_<BR/>antisocial_persona.html<BR/><BR/>marieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-64927332098036886282008-10-09T10:52:00.000-06:002008-10-09T10:52:00.000-06:00I think 'abuse in the dark' is brilliant. In my ex...I think 'abuse in the dark' is brilliant. In my experience, the sneakiness, the multiple layers of lies, the lack of loyalty, and the betrayal were jaw dropping.<BR/><BR/>My NF decided to end a year long relationship, but they had planned a vacation. He didn't want to lose money on the reservations they had made, and he felt he really needed a vacation, so off he went. He broke off the relationship in the cab on the way home from the airport. Brutal stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-63923145476198803022008-10-09T10:46:00.000-06:002008-10-09T10:46:00.000-06:00P.S.Kathy K also wrote an essay titled, "Are Narci...P.S.<BR/><BR/>Kathy K also wrote an essay titled, "Are Narcissists Unhappy?" and makes a strong case that they essentially <I>are</I> happy 99.9% of the time. <BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/4zd5r2Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-71704968929181779732008-10-09T09:37:00.000-06:002008-10-09T09:37:00.000-06:00Some of the commenters state that Ns have no emoti...<I>Some of the commenters state that Ns have no emotions, seem vacant, yet are prone to outbursts of anger when they don't get their way. Is this true emotion or a ruse to get what they want?</I><BR/><BR/>For an excellent tutorial on malignant narcissists and their anger/rages go Kathy Krajco's blog post titled "Narcissism and a Terrible Temper":<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/3olvqs<BR/><BR/>Pathological narcissists have emotions. Hell, even animals demonstrate they have emotions. There is nothing particularly "human" about having emotions. The internal life of a narcissist is bleak and dreary because they are disconnected from their emotions. This likely is what we interpret as their being vacant, blank. The outbursts of anger are most decidedly their way of getting what they want. It is the use of the temper tantrum to steer the behaviors of those around them. Plain and simple. True emotion? Hardly. <BR/><BR/><I>Do they feel real anger when someone they know is doing better than them?</I><BR/><BR/>For my analysis of what the narcissist is motivated by/feeling when someone is doing better than them (or is getting something they want) go to my blog post on "The Fear that Moves Them":<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/4mo2gy<BR/><BR/><I>Also, Ns enjoy torturing people emotionally and while it's not necessarily ethical...</I><BR/><BR/>No <I>necessarily</I> ethical?? Since when is someone enjoying <I>torturing</I> people any kind of ethical? Can we just state it simply and forthrightly that enjoying the torment of others is always unethical and most definitely <I>immoral</I>? Thank you.<BR/><BR/><I>...what would happen if you were to actually take away all that is good to an N? To torture them by having Nothing go their way?</I><BR/><BR/>Now you're equating depriving a narcissist of their victim as being <I>equivalent</I> to the torture they dish out to their victim. I find this line of reasoning to be extremely flawed on it's premise and therefore cannot deal with it as you present it. Narcissists, like us, can <I>choose</I> to play by the rules and not <I>use</I> people for their own personal aggrandizement. The truly good things in life are just as available to them as to us. They could choose to pursue a moral and right course and thereby reap the benefits of good character and hard work. No one is advocating taking away these true sources of good things from the narcissist. But there is no loss of virtue in depriving narcissists of prey. If they are made unhappy because suddenly all their illicit sources of what they consider "good" things are dried up then that is their tough luck. There is nothing immoral in depriving them of victims. Period. They are not entitled to what they want just because they want it. <BR/><BR/><I>One more thing, is there any "cure" or therapy for an N?</I><BR/><BR/>No one has found a cure for pathological (i.e. malignant) narcissism. There can be some success with behavior modification therapy in helping them alter some of their more objectionable behaviors enough to facilitate them having better interpersonal interactions. But that kind of therapy doesn't change what they are. It just helps them cope better by being less repugnant to those around them. Ns are not likely put into behavior modification therapy until they've landed in the justice system somewhere...i.e. after criminal behavior. Looking at the recidivism rates of most criminals I'd say the success rates of any kind of intervention are very modest at best.<BR/><BR/><I>Do you think they can actually help it and if they can't, would they then be truly evil?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I think they can help it. Anyone with intimate interaction with a malignant narcissist knows for a <I>fact</I> that the narcissist can control their behavior. Therefore, they are evil. Where is the evidence that they can control how they behave? The malignant narcissist is highly adept at only striking out at a victim <I>when it is safe for the narcissist to do so</I>. They abuse in the 'dark'. They hide what they are. They behave when behaving is necessary. They attack when the coast is clear. The logic is simple enough to follow. If a person can not help how they behave then they would act out their most ugly selves in every context regardless of who was looking on. Then we would likely label them 'insane'. Only the truly insane do their crimes in front of anyone. The calculating and self-control involved in only striking when it is safe to do so is proof enough of the <I>malignant</I> intent and purposeful predation that narcissists engage in. They have chosen to be what they are. Evil.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-55631437492550652092008-10-08T12:44:00.000-06:002008-10-08T12:44:00.000-06:00I'm trying to write a research paper on emotional ...I'm trying to write a research paper on emotional torture and came across this blog, which I find to be very helpful.. I do have a couple of questions I hope you can/will answer.<BR/>Some of the commenters state that Ns have no emotions, seem vacant, yet are prone to outbursts of anger when they don't get their way. Is this true emotion or a ruse to get what they want? Do they feel real anger when someone they know is doing better than them?<BR/>Also, Ns enjoy torturing people emotionally and while it's not necessarily ethical, what would happen if you were to actually take away all that is good to an N? To torture them by having Nothing go their way?<BR/>One more thing, is there any "cure" or therapy for an N? Or are they so far gone that they have no hope? (not like they care) Do you think they can actually help it and if they can't, would they then be truly evil?<BR/>I thank you very much for your time! Keep up the good blogging. It's very informative and from reading the comments, very needed.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again,<BR/>RachelRachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00574025785063224560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-18863800049815614392008-10-06T10:30:00.000-06:002008-10-06T10:30:00.000-06:00What about other personality disorders? Do you con...<I>What about other personality disorders? Do you consider them just different forms of narcissism or just unrelated disorders?</I><BR/><BR/>I think the lines drawn around personality disorders are fuzzy and unscientific. Lines which are <I>arbitrarily</I> drawn by non-scientific methods. There is much evidence to support the belief that many personality disorders are various manifestations of predatory and malignant narcissistic behavior. <BR/><BR/>Malignant narcissism is highly adaptive in its behavior. This is a fact that most of the professionals don't get. MN <I>must</I> adapt in order to thrive in any particular environment, and it must adapt to the individual's particular abilities (i.e. intellect, physical appearance, education level, etc.). The psych community tends to see discrete classifications based on groups of behaviors. Those of us who've seen malignant narcissists in various situations see something different than the so-called professionals. We see adaptability to varying conditions and supply sources, protective coloration, and different (or changing) victim preference. <BR/><BR/>There is no simple answer to your question...but the above is my simple answer.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-88380507642233331402008-10-06T04:58:00.000-06:002008-10-06T04:58:00.000-06:00Anna, Thank you for giving me so much blog space t...Anna, Thank you for giving me so much blog space to express my pain and hear the kind words and support out there. Sometimes the world closes in pretty hard, and you don't feel like you can keep going. My particular pain relates right now to how my daughter responds to me, her own conscience, and the years of training in dismissing me she learned from him. <BR/><BR/>Regret can poison you; fear can paralyze you. I saw so much but couldn't stop it or change it (his atmosphere) no matter how hard I tried. He was relentless and ruthless, deceptive, manipulative beyond anything I could have imagined. He was not who I thought he was. I didn't really see or understand what was happening until the end -- like seeing a couple of dots on the page but not the full face.<BR/><BR/>I really am grateful for those who said I have some value to the universe in and of myself, despite everything. That feeling (believing that I am worth something, that I really am a good person despite what he said) is missing inside me and feeds the despair. I will carry your comfort with me. I know everyone is facing their own suffering out there - mine just rose over my head this week. thank you. 'jewell'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-26162538142897346992008-10-05T14:49:00.000-06:002008-10-05T14:49:00.000-06:00Teen-agers are a strange breed, aren't they? I...Teen-agers are a strange breed, aren't they? I know because, well..I was one...haha.<BR/><BR/>To all of you not only healing from the devestating effects of loving and caring for a personality disordered individual, but also dealing with young teens immersed in their OWN pain & suffering, my heart truly goes out to you. <BR/><BR/>But I do believe, as KRL has demonstrated with her post, that they can "grow out of it" if and when they move on out of those seemingly tulmultuous years.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't minimize the pain and disruption you face every single day, but I think it offers hope. Hope that you can eventually make peace with each other and embrace a much more fulfilling relationship with each other.<BR/><BR/>Miracles do happen and I've been the recepient of more than I could possibly deserve, but...there it is. <BR/><BR/>Keep the faith. Stay strong in it and maintain your own self respect, dignity and compassion regardless of the obstacles thrown before your path. You are lovable and you are extremely important to the balance of good & evil in the universe. <BR/><BR/>Peace, love and joy for you all..:)<BR/>KimberleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-47255794332739027692008-10-05T09:15:00.000-06:002008-10-05T09:15:00.000-06:00This morning...as I am reading through the comment...This morning...as I am reading through the comments...I am tearful. I can't tell you how deeply I 'hear' how much love and care most all of us feel for our children. The helplessness we often feel while raising our children...who, too, have been affected by the influences of Ns...and the victimization by Ns. We know enough now to realize it is 'choice(s)' that create an N...and ongoing pattern of choices...and it is frightening indeed. The idea of losing our children to Evil is beyond comprehension. There is no other place we can be but before the God who made us...kept us...turned us...and keeps us. Pray for your children's protection...pray that He turns their hearts....pray that whatever He gave you to give them will play a part in their memories and their consciences.<BR/><BR/>I had a 5 year period of time with my daughter too. From 18-23, I was pretty worried about her. She lived far away and I had no money so there wasn't that issue. But, I was shit under her feet a lot of her teens. (She was mad when I married a man who was a 'not good man'....but she was not mad about that. She was mad that...get this..."Mom, you are a very pretty woman...you could get anyone you wanted...who could pay for everything and I could have a car and all the things my friend have...and you do THIS?") Ok....she wasn't mad because I married a shithead. She was mad that I didn't marry a RICH shithead! Just a little picture of my wonderful life with my daughter.<BR/><BR/>I don't want to go into all that happened after the horrible years...too long and winding...but..NOW....I couldn't have ever asked for a better daughter....a mature, loving person...who married a good and decent man...(second marriage. Her first husband died of cancer right before their baby was born.) A wonderful mother.<BR/><BR/>Miracles DO happen. There IS hope. Don't quit praying for wisdom and discernment as you walk through tumultuous time in the 'aftermath'. No matter how it seems...just don't quit. For the love of God and your children...don't quit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-1000273086997866162008-10-05T04:50:00.000-06:002008-10-05T04:50:00.000-06:00Thank you everyone. Katrina pegged XNH behavior p...Thank you everyone. Katrina pegged XNH behavior perfectly (passive agressive, mental & emotional abuse, covert manipulation, lies, gaslighting and other terrible abuse, etc.). Katrina described my situation precisely - the vicious attacks when I would not agree to live in his shadowbox. Yes, he wanted to break my mind and murder my spirit. Only those who have been there know what that is like. Those closest to us have the power to harm us profoundly. I felt fear and disgust when I realized how very like an ugly spider he is, poisoning me from behind. I have to put those thoughts away, because they start to terrify me.<BR/><BR/>Thank you to all who are offering encouragement and support. That advice was with me yesterday, as I stood firm with my daughter. She made it perfectly clear she hates me. I feel I have lost her. I still have to do the right things, but it feels like I am doing them at the end of a marathon, with no end in sight. <BR/><BR/>Marie is so insightful with her idea of parallel parenting, instead of co-parenting. I have been trying to co-parent with someone who doesn't care, except for frustrating me with bull---t. It is entirely possible he continues to plant seeds of disrespect in her mind. I appreciated the wisdom in the comments of anon 7:42 and 'dee' as well. <BR/><BR/>I have been persevering, but I don't really know how to survive the possibiliity of a final outcome where she rejects me forever, or worse, never connects with decency and truth. I see some of you have had to survive that, and I grieve for you. I hope you are right when she say that she may feel my love as she lashes out at me. It makes sense that we have no choice but to stand up for ourselves and not be victims, not allow further abuse. How deeply ironic, that the goal is for simple survival and no abuse, as opposed to happy family, etc. What a tragic gap. I have nothing else to give, and try to look to prayer for help. Why is it so hard? I don't really know how to carry the load, after so many losses and failures. Many suggested giving the burden to God. I am trying very hard to do that. <BR/> "jewell"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-7102319407311872112008-10-04T20:44:00.000-06:002008-10-04T20:44:00.000-06:00Jewell,Thank you for your kind comments. And than...Jewell,<BR/>Thank you for your kind comments. And thank you for your response to notherapy. I think Anna is probably correct, that notherapy is a young person. It certainly seems she/he is trying to make sense of growing up with an N parent. The raw feeling of being wronged radiates from the page, and moved me to tears. I felt much better about that post after reading your response, which was spot-on and something notherapy needed to hear. <BR/>I wish you and your daughter well on your healing path, and I am very glad that you have someone to talk to who can see what’s going on and gives you sound advice. I found, with my younger daughter, that it was very helpful to be familiar with the parental alienation techniques used by personality disordered parents. I was able to let her know that I knew what her father was doing, without denigrating her father to her. (Not a simple task!) It seemed that was the turning point with her. It took quite a while, but she is well-adjusted now and seems immune to her Nfather’s attempts to vilify me. Those events may even have slowed down, since she now spends equal time with me. I don’t know, because I don’t talk about him with her unless she brings it up. But it was a close call with her, especially with the older daughter assisting Nfather in his alienation efforts. I had to give up trying to co-parent, as Nfather would only “co-parent” when he wanted to enlist my aid in his controlling behavior toward my younger daughter, and I will have no part of that ever again. So we “parallel parent” and have very little contact, which results in much less conflict, therefore fewer opportunities for him to badmouth me.<BR/>I hope that your daughter can get to the same place as my younger one. I understand what you said earlier – she has to choose a path. It’s the fight of their lives, and they flail against the one who can help them. Like saving a drowning victim. And if you tell them they are drowning, they flail all the more. Be strong and steady for her and she will feel your love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-12237489111797785012008-10-04T17:46:00.000-06:002008-10-04T17:46:00.000-06:00me wrote:"I would like to ask everyone who has gon...me wrote:<BR/><BR/>"I would like to ask everyone who has gone NC a question. Did most of you go NC with both parents? I went NC with my NM and my dad just seemed to go with it."<BR/><BR/>Estranging yourself from one family member while staying in touch with the rest of the family is very difficult and rarely comes off without a hitch. The remaining family members don't like your straying from the fold, and/or having to make separate arrangements to see you on holidays, so they pressure pressure you to reconcile with that person. Expect to be called "anti-family", "cruel" and worse. I eventually realized that those family members who knew enough about the toxic situation I endured, if they had a lick of sanity, would eventually realize I made the right choice. Those family members who didn't know about what was occurring needed to butt out. The ones who knew about what occurred and didn't support my boundaries were part of the problem and weren't worth my time. If they could keep their mouths shut about a child (me) being abused, they could sure keep their mouths shut about an adult utilizing her right to choose her company wisely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-36935458052567111572008-10-04T14:49:00.000-06:002008-10-04T14:49:00.000-06:00"It is just a matter of wait and see"Yup. Some gro..."It is just a matter of wait and see"<BR/><BR/>Yup. Some grow of it, others don't. Sort of like the socially awkward kid in high school is someone almost unrecognizable in college. Something like that. I hear a lot about that on the Something Awful boards. <BR/><BR/>What about other personality disorders? Do you consider them just different forms of narcissism or just unrelated disorders?So, what IS in a heart?https://www.blogger.com/profile/00482423451947167280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-72298152455905737672008-10-04T13:24:00.000-06:002008-10-04T13:24:00.000-06:00Anna, Thank you for allowing me space to respond ...Anna, Thank you for allowing me space to respond to 'notherapy', and for your understanding. I appreciate your perspective. It helps. <BR/><BR/>For Marie - we seem to share very similar experiences. My 'marriage' was 18-19 yrs too, to "perfect father", "perfect neighbor" etc. He was very different behind closed doors. Constantly undermining, manipulating, etc. No one could believe it when he left.<BR/><BR/>Your post also feels disturbingly familiar to me, as I didn't know how to explain that relationship between N father and my daughter. Nauseatingly, "emotional incest" and "surrogate spouse" make sense. He fixated on her, would have denied me oxygen if he could. He certainly denied attention, compassion, and everything else (in addition to chronic deceit).<BR/> <BR/>My respect is going your way for your courage in leaving. I too did the best I could, to provide stability and normalcy despite the machinations of NH, and I continue to do so. I didn't know what NPD was until I tried to make sense of his cruelty at the end (devalue and discard) when he found better 'host.' I also commend you on the compassion in your response to notherapy. You are someone I hope will find the answers and hope you are looking for - I am seeking the same. May we both find the healing we want so deeply for our children. 'jewell'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-74683233031461667362008-10-04T12:41:00.000-06:002008-10-04T12:41:00.000-06:00Dear Anna,This post has been amazing, once again.A...Dear Anna,<BR/><BR/>This post has been amazing, once again.All the comments it brought out & the discussion it brought about were so very thought-provoking, that I just could never even narrow down how to participate. So it made more sense to me to just listen & learn.<BR/><BR/>However,today's pain,as illustrated by Jewell's courageous "reaching out",<BR/>prompts me to respond.<BR/><BR/>First of all, Notherapy, I hope that you will stick around & find some peace from the collective years of experience & recovery so freely given on this blog. We are all here to encourage each other. Not to cause each other more pain. That's called a "driveby". Some of your points are certainly part of the overall healing process in a family, & certainly issues we,many of us as parents, understand about the layers of wisdom we must use in helping our children. I hope that you can take this awareness of what sparks a strong reaction in you, to peel back another layer of your own pain. That's how our healing occurs. Its lifelong.<BR/><BR/>Jewell, I SOOO related to everything you said. Sadly, I have a Nson, with whom I remain in contact. I now realize, through gut-wrenching experience, that he can turn on a dime. And when he does, there are terrible repurcussions, as he NOW has THE trump card--a baby. We have made this conscious decision to remain in his life, primarily, hoping he MAY still DECIDE to grow up at some point (he is young). But <BR/>also because we realize the importance of our stable force in the child's life. The thought of the child not having our presence in its life is horrifying. We can hopefully infuse some good into itslittle childhood, that would otherwise be sadly lacking, being raised solely by this father & his dear wife, who only tries to keep peace in her home, as we understand all too well.<BR/><BR/>Jewell, standing up for ourselves always brings on the full force of our N's evil actions. When they no longer have control over us, or find they can't dance our puppet strings & get their desired reactions, they must come at us in other cowardly ways. In my case, I have been unbelievably blessed with a kind & supportive husband, like Anna. Its my family of origin that has caused me unspeakable pain. 13 siblings. And it only startswith ONE. The one that has re-written history & trashed my family to my whole community, & outwards to the whole country--as the others are scattered all over. <BR/><BR/>Whenwechanged the dance"---like ONE alchoholic in a family QUITTING<BR/>drinking--the others don't know what to do. So they pounce, shun,trashtalk,turn people against us,etc. All designed to make us FEEL CRAZY, break us down, murder our spirits, & COME OUT ON TOP!!!<BR/>Like its a contest or something. When we refuse to play-it just ramps them up worse.<BR/><BR/>YOU, my dear, are REFUSING TO PLAY!!!!<BR/><BR/>ThattakessGUTS,GONADS,COURAGE,RGHTEOUSNESS,INTEGRITY,STRENGTH.<BR/><BR/>Your daughter is illustrating N characteristics, as WELL as typical teen behaviour. You are doing SO much to stay strong in the face of this. Reaching out to others who've lived through it. Taking care of yourself in positive ways. That's all you can do, ONE DAY AT A TIME. Remember that it can be SO confusing for us. We've been deliberately & strategically emotionally abused by a trusted loved one, for a long time. Guidance by a trusted friend, therapist, pastor, etc. can be invaluable. There are many support groups for parenting. My husband & I found a very caring one through our local police dept, believe it or not,which helped us immeasurably through our son's teen yrs, when he was displaying incorrigibility in our home.<BR/><BR/>But mostly, now that you are this path of recovery, trust your gut.<BR/>Don't allow your child to abuse you. I found that when I stopped allowing my son to see my response to him pushing my buttons,he lost his NS. Yes, I spent many moments crying silently in the bathroom, crushed by the mean things he said to me, but I came out & looked him in the eye & gave it back to him as though he were a normal child I was raising. Told him he WOULD show me respect-I didn't care HOW he FELT. He lostpriveleges left & right, which only caused him to "HATE" us more. But, Jewell, we made it through those years. HOW?<BR/><BR/>Read Anonymous 7:42 again.<BR/><BR/>Some people ,sometimes our own CHILDREN learn to cultivate N characteristics, & decide they actually WORK for them. So they don't have any motivaton to change. they just HONE those skills. I hope & pray that that is NOT what's going on with YOUR child, but listen to ANNA when she says it is only TIME that can determine that. In the meantime, we have to find the strength inside to FIGHT against that evil.Just keep treating her the way you would have when she was 2.<BR/>Re-read the poem "Mean Mommy". That hung on our refrigerator for years. If she doesnt show respect, know inside that she DOES have respect for you. Cuz you have the guts to stand up to her Bullshit!<BR/>And she SAW you stand up to her fathers! Most people in the outside world would say, What are you complaining about? He talked to your daughter in the car for hours?! I wish my children had a relationship like that with their father! But WE know what that was.<BR/>It was passive agressive emotional & mental abuse. Don't believe that self-talk that they made you listen to-that its "stupid".<BR/><BR/>Patience & prayer. Give this burden to God. He has promissed to lift it off your shoulders, if you ask Him. I will pray for you!<BR/>KatrinaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-56792423440425089082008-10-04T10:24:00.000-06:002008-10-04T10:24:00.000-06:00Isn't it true that narcissism cannot be reliably d...<I>Isn't it true that narcissism cannot be reliably diagnosed until adulthood?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that's true. Consider, though, that the adult who is diagnosed as having NPD demonstrated the same behaviors as a child/teen/young adult. The signs are always there. It is just a matter of wait and see: will this individual adopt a mature adult mind or retain their childish, selfish mind(psychological neoteny)? Narcissists are always a case of arrested development which is why a firm diagnosis can't be made until adulthood. Only then can it be clearly determined that this person decided not to grow up.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-38896956957721165332008-10-04T10:09:00.000-06:002008-10-04T10:09:00.000-06:00Isn't it true that narcissism cannot be reliably d...Isn't it true that narcissism cannot be reliably diagnosed until adulthood?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-71958042097557177892008-10-04T09:16:00.000-06:002008-10-04T09:16:00.000-06:00To the Harry Potter readers, I'm curious how you w...<I>To the Harry Potter readers, I'm curious how you would find Severus Snape in terms of narcissism?</I><BR/><BR/>Having read the whole series my opinion is that Snape is a very complex character who is obviously somewhat screwed up...but he is most definitely not a narcissist.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-6462207857899859302008-10-04T08:44:00.000-06:002008-10-04T08:44:00.000-06:00jewell,I was extremely hesitant to allow "notherap...jewell,<BR/><BR/>I was extremely hesitant to allow "notherapy"'s comment to go through. I let it sit for hours in moderation. My impression from the commenter is that they are very young..perhaps themselves a teen or barely out of their teens. I decided to let the comment through so perhaps the readers here could deal with the boat load of assumptions and projection going on in this person's mind. Thank you for your honest response/reaction. I think you and Marie have taken the opportunity of this comment to clarify even further what you've gone through and are going through. <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for the body blow. I hope you can be assured that the majority of readers here as well as myself are much more in touch with the complexities of your situation and the sorrow of your heart for the burdens your child(ren) still carry as a result of having a N parent. Hang in there! You're a strong woman who just very ably defended yourself. Thank you for acquitting yourself so well in addressing each assumption of the commenter. Like you, I hate it when people fill in the blanks with their own negative assumptions rather than recognizing they don't have all the facts.Anna Valerioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537877317873251678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32237145.post-23396072559241497322008-10-04T05:54:00.000-06:002008-10-04T05:54:00.000-06:00Response to Anon Oct. 3, 3:54pmWell, you certainly...Response to Anon Oct. 3, 3:54pm<BR/><BR/>Well, you certainly delivered a barrage of vicious, below-the-belt body blows! What appalling arrogance to assume you know so much about either me, or my daughter. Frankly, you filled in a lot of blanks with your own imaginary behaviors and prejudices.<BR/><BR/>For what it is worth, I will respond to some of these “errors” for the sake of my self respect and in honor of my daughter:<BR/><BR/>“I really have to react to the people who told about their daughters being icy etc after the father left.” --> This is incorrect. I was talking about a completely different problem, that relates to far more complex set of issues than simply his departure. Ironically, it is XNH that says his departure is not important, not me. However, I am trying to reach and help my child as she deals with multiple issues.<BR/><BR/>“Besides the fact that teens are trying to figure out who they are and what to believe and not, these are teens that have been in a nasty situation.” --> Do you really think any mother doesn’t know what teens are going through? Or the consequences of living with a narcissistic parent? We are not idiots.<BR/><BR/>“Be honest with yourselves. What kind of behaviour did you have when the father was still there? Were you honest and trustworthy? Or did you break promises and step over boundaries to accomodate the father? “ --> What the heck are you talking about? You don’t know my character at all, so why are you attacking it? I am not defensive here, just disgusted that a stranger feels comfortable assuming I have no integrity, that I was a doormat for a NH, that I compromised my responsibilities. Not the case, even at enormous cost to myself. <BR/><BR/>“If you were walked all over by the father what do you expect your almost adult child to think of you?” --> Again, what are you talking about? You suggest that my daughter has no respect for me, and that I deserve that. Wrong on both counts. <BR/><BR/>“And last but not least, you do understand that finally now that the father is out of the picture, you have to totally start at the beginning in cultivating a new and healthy relationship with your child. You can not expect everythin to be all peaches and roses now that the father has left!” --> Again, who said I was looking for peaches and cream? What a leap. I was looking for encouragement while dealing with challenging issues. I was looking for support as I support my daughter’s personal and spiritual development from young teen to healthy adult, despite adversity, despite bad behavior modelled by N parent. Your comment strongly implies I am some whining loser who doesn’t like hard work. You are flat wrong.<BR/><BR/>“So before even thinking of your kid being a N start evaluate how her life must have been! What she had to witness! These first 18 years are so important and what were the lessons that you presented your child? You can not say: o well but I was a victim of a N. Imo the real victim is always the child that was born into a situation he/she never had a chance to choose.” -> What the #@% are you talking about? First, I never suggested my child was an N in my original post. Second, I think that worry comes up for many who have dealt with a N spouse, but my goal is to help my child make the right choices because she has that integrity inside herself. <BR/><BR/>What gave you the right to assume that I sit around and whine "oh well, I am a victim of an N" and blame things on that? Never happened! I have been run over many times by him, but gotten up every time. You smoothly insert that harmful comment about the importance of the early years. What parent with an N spouse doesn’t feel that pain? Why are you blaming me for his behaviors? I take responsibility for my own, but what I have learned the hard way is that I am not to blame for his abuse of me or what he is. I won't let you undermine my progress there. What is your point? I don’t know why you attacked me (and the other Anon, but I am sure they can stand up for themselves), Was it because I said found a supportive, insightful therapist (“notherapy”). <BR/><BR/>Well, bottom line --> this was a despicable post on your part, but I am not going to let you throw mud on me, or my struggling child. You have no idea what we have gone through together, who I am, my character and values, what I have done to deal with NH, nor what I have done to help her. Nice job of kicking someone who is down though. Go to *%^$.<BR/><BR/>“jewell”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com